You know what it says about career expectations?

It says that guys felt that they would have better careers at UAL. Bigger airplanes, better work rules, better flying to REAL international destinations. You can talk W-2's all day long, but our guys did a pretty good job explaining how DAL, UAL, SWA and AMR are all paying about the same going forward. Arguing that CAL guys used to have a higher hourly rate (compared to our temporary BK wages) is a waste of time.

I've met dozens of pilots who left CAL in the last 25 years to come over to UAL. None of them wishes that they had stayed. These weren't furloughed guys, just regular CAL line pilots that couldn't put up with life at CAL any longer.

CAL's problem is Katz. He's arguing W-2's and looking at the most junior captains to make a list. NEITHER of these things is mentioned in the merger policy that guides this whole process. He's tried these tactics before with horrible results.

Another laughable argument is for the April 2013 date for the merged list. Once again, there is no historical basis for NOT using the merger date back in 2010.

 

My post was directed towards SonnyC.. But since you decided to respond, I'll add this-

Guess you missed the middle pilot up there. He left UAL and never went back. He is now doing that "international flying" you tout.
Again, everyone chooses their airline for their own reasons.


I never brought up W-2's .. you did.

That's great. Good for them. If they are happy were they are at, there's no problem.
I was pointing out that those few pilots that Sonny C brought up have had way different career outcomes and therefore also have different career expectations. Again, it will be up to the Arbitrators to put whatever weight they want to.


Actually he is not "our" problem. I've been pretty impressed and glad he's defending our position.
His "arguments" as you put it have to do with trying to show the Arbitrators what the CAL pilot group brought to the table, where they were and which way they were heading.
That has EVERYTHING to do with career expectations.
It also has to do with "Status and Category". If Widebody International is so important, yet it paid less than what many of our guys were getting paid flying narrowbody International, that will be something the Arbitrators will also have to put some weight to.

Funny, back in 2010/2011 there was talk about taking the "snapshot" when the 73's were parked (on the UAL side)..
Again.. it's the CAL Side's job to present the best picture we can to the Arbitrators.
As I have posted somewhere else.. the CAL Side has had advancements due to growth and replacement aircraft that were ordered way before the merger. There has also been a steady stream of retirements on the CAL Side (small.. but steady).
Something else to ponder are the changes in work rules. We HAD a Contract 08 Proposal that was shelved after the merger.. but had the merger not happened, chances are.. the Continental Pilot Group would have had a new CBA sometime in 2010/2011.. with many (if not most) of the things we were aiming for in C08. That was "supposedly" good for 500-600 jobs.

The question is.. in the last 2.5 years since the merger (Oct '10 to Apr '13), what kind of movement have the middle and bottom of your list had, vs. what the CAL Pilots have had.
It will be up to the Arbitrators to determine if it's a windfall for the LUAL Pilots to use Oct '10 or a windfall for the CAL Pilots to use Apr '13. (I have moved up 15% since the Oct '10 list)

Always interesting to read a LUAL Pilots opinion. Having over a dozen LUAL friends myself, there is also differences of opinion from them. Just like not every CAL Pilot believes what I believe.
(I had a lenghty discussion with a fellow CAL Pilot who felt that EVERY Furloughed LUAL pilot should go below our Furloughees. I tried to explain the "voluntary" Furloughs but he just couldn't get past the word "Furlough")

Both sides have their extremist. Luckily it isn't up to us line pilots, it's up to 3 Arbitrators.

Motch

 

-------- Deleted for Unity ----------

 

That's where you are very wrong. The LINE PILOTS will determine what happens to the combined pilot group going forward. You can steal, cheat and lie but ultimately you are doing those things to yourself because everybody else knows you for your deeds not your words.
I'm surprised you didn't use the "It's business not personal" to justify your actions.

 

Yeah Staller and Unity!!! Now thats funny.....

 

I figured you like that - I actually wrote it for the cal guys that don't understand the concept of unity.

 

We Understand Charity, something you guys need and feel you are owed.....Especially you staller....

 

Peter, I some how feel that most CAL pilots have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that without the merger, the above would not have been the case. No LAX, No DEN and No ORD equals no movement. The progression from the much awaited Age 65 retirements which started this past Dec 12th 2012, would not have the same positive effect on your movement as opening three new domiciles. Something CAL had not done in over 20 years. To try and use post merger gains to enhance your position is not going to fly. Never mind that most of the new B737 flying for CAL out of LAX, DEN, ORD is not really new flying to United.

 

Motch,

Yeah, I agree it can get convoluted when one tries to think about the variables you discuss.

To answer the question about me, yes, I'm a LUAL guy that took a vol furlough. I bypassed on the CAL offer over a year before deciding to come back. I'm IAH 737. I was in the first group of 30 or so to get the LUAL recall in Jan. I bypassed that for too many reasons, and yes, am staying on the CAL side of the op until SLI when I will basically be considered as accepting recall. At that point I'll look at the result of the SLI, and progress with whatever the outcome of the combined list provides for time I have left.

The training issues you bring up are certainly a problem. New BES such as SFO would have to be administered under the guidance of the CBA and offered to active pilots before being available to a recall as an unfilled vacancy. Obviously, this will all happen in CCS as that "merger" goes forward. Really should be transparent. Smaller but more frequent bids is all. They will, however, under the new (to CAL) process have hard activation dates (like 3 or 4 months from award) that if not met results in certain options for the pilot.

One thing is certain....there"s gonna be a lot of training going on with retirements, fleet replacement, potential new BES, etc.

Glad I'm just a line puke.

Cheers,
Lee

 

I was trying to be nice but I guess in your case it's a no go. For your sake let's make ONE thing clear. The UAL pilots put together a seniority list that was more than generous to the cal guys and what did you do? From the onset you started trying to steal. It's a good thing this is being arbitrated or we'd just give you what you deserve - which is ???????.