Best thing I've read posted by a CAL pilot - Thanks!

 

Sort of reminds me of this quote...

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” ― Isaac Asimov

To comment on something that you actually know nothing of, in its origins, is patently absurd. Your comment basically stated that we're all just "blind sheep" (not sure where that metaphor came from, although it clearly implies that we can't find subsistence without assistance, which almost defines being a sheep - even a seeing one) if we have read the testimony and agree with LAX's version. Told by someone that admittedly didn't read the testimony. Um.... what?

I've read all of the testimony. To say that there aren't some compelling arguments from both sides would also be absurd. I happen to agree with most of what LAX's synopsis eluded to, but I'm also somewhat beholden to the outcome (as are you!) In my case, much less so than most (#1 vs. #87 endgame.) Regardless, I believe the CAL side has and continues to do a disservice to the process and frankly to the CAL pilots. They've basically argued that being furloughed means no career expectations (absurd), widebodies aren't desirable, work rules aren't desirable, and that all international routes are interchangeable. None of those are arguments that hold water.

Scott

 

Interesting point of view.
As a CAL guy, I have been impressed with most of what I've read. (Not all, but most)
I disagree totally with the witness who stated he didn't like "rigs" but he did explain why and basically his opinion is that it screwed Senior guys. Didn't like reading that, and not very fond of that mindset. But he's allowed his opinion.

But at the end of the day, the CAL NC works for the Continental Pilot group. As such, they need to show that LUAL was in a bad place and heading worse in order to protect the bottom of my list.

The 800lb gorilla is still the fact that LUAL came into this merger with 1400+ Furloughs, LCAL with 147, of which some were already recalled before the merger was announced, and the rest were recalled by the merger date.

The argument that furloughs have "career expectations" is a tough one. One only needs to look back at history and see how many furloughs at PanAm, Eastern, TWA, etc ended up with great career expectations at their carriers.
I know that not every pilot who is (or was) furloughed ends up starting over again. It's a complicated formula that included the financials of their carrier, their own age, etc...

CAL's point is how many jobs did each side bring to the table. Cut and dry.
On top of that, what are the career expectations of those pilots bringing jobs to the table. Not so cut and dry.

There is no simple easy answer here and I (and I would bet most) wish this merger would not have happened (or at least not when it did). Then again, I also wish we had a better management team, a stronger union, and winning Lotto numbers!

Oh well... Happy Fathers Day to those out there with kids!

Always
Motch

 

This is very telling about the motives of the cal people and how low they will go - Accountability - Consequences.

 

Look at what you just did... you parsed (so did I!) You chose an argument that benefited your side. You illustrated that PanAm, Eastern, and TWA pilots that were furloughed ended up with lousy careers despite great career expectations. Note how you disregarded CAL, UAL, Delta, NWA, AMR, USAir (ok I'm reaching on that one perhaps) etc... pilots that were at one point furloughed and ended up being Captains, widebody Captains, and even led entire Flight Operations Departments (there are several)... To simply disregard career expectations and longevity in 100% preference of class (which CAL did Cap/Cap - F/O/F/O) is in direct conflict with ALPA merger policy. It isn't going to happen. It will absolutely be the end of ALPA. They know this. I know you know this.

You're one of the smartest and most well spoken CAL pilots I've interacted with, probably ever. The CAL list won't happen. ALPA cannot afford for it to. The fact that is was even proposed shows just how off the reservation the CAL leadership is IMHO. I guess time will tell, however.

Personally, I think this merger will be very important to all of our careers. My Dad was furloughed 7 times at the original Frontier. He had a garbage career with 3 bankruptcies, a shutdown, and commuted for all by the last 15. If mergers like this end up creating stability for airline workers (which I believe they will), then I think they're necessary. I'm absolutely disappointed in the process this merger has taken (not just management or union), but I think in the end it will be a stronger company.

Scott

 

I did! But you illustrate a great point. It's a coin toss when it comes to furlough, bankruptcy and careers. It's an unknown. So the UAL side will argue for the better, the CAL side for the worse.
Up to 3 guys to make the call.

And the Chief Pilot at PanAm.. the number one guy at Eastern.. where did they end up? It's partly a crap shoot!
You will never know if you (and I) made the right call by going to our respective airlines until the day we retire [19 years for me..]

The CAL List will never happen~ I know that! I also do not expect the UAL List to happen either. For numerous reasons.
What I do "expect" is that the Arbitrators are going to look at both lists, they are (probably) going to have some sort of methodology in mind and see if/where the two lists match, and then they are going to make up their own list.
I will not be surprised if some on the CAL list and some on the UAL list still end up matching..

The problem really lies with the bottom Captains and senior FO's (middle of the list) and what you do with the (involuntary) Furloughs.
A guy who is 10% on your list, and 10% on my list.. will probably by close to 10% (give or take a %) on the ISL.
But what about a guy who is 50% on your list and the guy 50% on my list.. who have very different earnings and career expectations.

or my situation-
I'm currently at 83%.. should I be matched up with a UAL pilot who is at 83%? (and using which list? Active Pilots or Total pilots?)
And using which date?! One in 2010 or one in 2013?

As far as my MC being off the reservation. I'm ok with that. The same could be said about your MC. Reality is, they are both fighting for their respective side.

And you bring up ALPA. That is the one unknown in this whole affair that bothers me. If ALPA and Lee Moak somehow influence the Arbitrators.. or the Arbitrators feel that they owe ALPA National something.
That if they make a list that is neutral or weighs slightly in CAL's favor, that United ALPA is done for. And at the end of the day, I think these Arbitrators also know that if they do something that is "perceived" wrong, it could affected their future too. I imagine they make good money doing this. They may want to keep that option open~

Agreed! I always thought that after Delta/NorthWest.. the writing was on the wall for the rest of the industry. Problem is, I never expected us (CAL/UAL) to happen so soon nor did I expect it to be this bloody and/or messy.

Both sides will have people that argue that if they had gone it alone, the other side would have liquidated and then they could have picked up the pieces. Who knows?!
One thing is for sure.. Delta would (as they are now) have been the leaders of the pack.
Would it have been painful to be stand alone? Maybe.
Alaska seems to be doing it. Same with SouthWest, Spirit, JetBlue.. etc.

I still hold out hope that after SLI (come 2014) we will have a list that isn't too painful and we can move forward.
I hope/expect that once we have an SLI, we will see 100-150 guys take the money and run. I also think you will see massive bids/movement that should help everyones QoL. (still not going to help the Domestic guys who try to deadhead home after a pairing at a base other than theirs.. Contract still allows scheduling to mess with you!).

I'm someone who tries to look for the positives, but at the same time am a realist and also expects/plans for worse case.

Either way, I can not and will not hold those UAL pilots who are around my seniority personally responsible for where they ended up. They had no say in it. I will hold them responsible if they Voted YES and then ***** about what the company is doing to us! (LOL).

Always
Motch

PS> You are going to loose bonus points on this Forum if you call me one of the smartest CAL pilots you've interacted with.. lol. Then again, maybe you don't know alot of CAL pilots!
All Good~

 

Should we introduce the career expectations of those furloughed UAL pilots that thought so highly of their expectations that they took other jobs (sometimes in other career fields) and refused to return?

 

They have 10 year recall bypass rights. So yes -- introduce whatever you please. Common sense, reality, nor the truth have prevented the introduction of any of your fact so far....why change now?

 

Unlike the majority at cal, most UAL hires had skill sets that make them desirable in other professions outside aviation. I understand you guys are happy you got hired at cal - that's ok. Weather a UAL furloughed guy returns to the new United or not is his option. The UAL pilots will continue to support these guys and their rights to return to the new United at a senority number that factors in their "career expectations". Your greed is starting to show or is it your limitations!

 

Or the ones who came to CAL in 05/06 and stayed at CAL(and gave up their number at UAL!), and have a very senior position, status, category, career expectation at CAL while still on the street at UAL. They can and may be Captains at CAL. Should they go below their original seniority at UAL for the 'chance' they have taken? That is what the UAL list does to them!!! Someone please tell me how to logically figure that one out? And, 'give them back their original seniority at UAL' is not a valid answer, as they had already previously resigned.