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Old 09-24-2013, 04:58 PM   #41  
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Originally Posted by SpecialTracking View Post
What the arbitrators wrote was definitive. Who cares what was awarded at DAL/NWA? I guess if it has worked for LCAL in the past , they will continue to feed at the trough until it is empty.
What they wrote was not definitive as I just explained and that is why the two sides are arguing now (if it's true they are arguing). One of the many mistakes the arbitrators made IMO.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:01 PM   #42  
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Originally Posted by jsled View Post
They already did it......



Date: September 6, 2013 Expires: September 16, 2013 To: Pilots | From: Crew Resources/WHQCM

Displacement Awards Per 737 MOU

Eligible Pilots Only
The following only affects pilots who are entitled to a displacement pursuant to the 737 MOU dated July 10, 2013. This will only impact pilots who are not in training, have not received a training assignment bid (TAB) award, or have not been pay protected for an assignment.
If you have received a CCS message, you are eligible for displacement rights under the MOU above.
A pilot with displacement rights is permitted to remain in his/her staffed position, or select another category to which their seniority can hold, which may include your prior award. For this interim process, no pilot will be affected by another pilot exercising their displacement rights. However, if future analysis determines an excess of pilot staffing exists, there is the potential for category/BES displacements under section 8 of the contract.
Pilots who do not wish to change their staffed position do not need to respond to this bulletin.
To facilitate this decision, a Junior Pilot Table (sample below) will indicate the junior- most pilot assuming the future movements as of the most recent TAB. Pilots holding displacements will be counted in their present operating positions.

A pilot deciding to exercise displacement rights and select a new category must email that election to [email protected] by 0800 CDT September 16th. A printable form with required information for pilot election is provided on the following page. Should a pilot submit more than one form, only the last submission will be considered. An immediate return email response will be generated to confirm receipt of the request.

Upon Processing, participating pilots will receive CCS notice of the revised award. The revised award will be referenced as 14_02D for future reference.
This is prob what the debate is over. Since this seems to say that pilots awarded a training date would not eligible for displacement rights, it would seem to say that the company is planning on sending them to school. That would be in direct conflict with the SLI award.

So, I am betting that is the sticking point. Not so much whether they are eligible for displacement rights, but more that they are not eligible to go to a training class that had not started prior to the SLI. So, if they aren't eligible to start training then they would definitely be eligible for a bump, but the fight is prob over whether the training assignments awarded in the NOV TAFB are still valid.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:03 PM   #43  
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What they wrote was not definitive as I just explained and that is why the two sides are arguing now (if it's true they are arguing). One of the many mistakes the arbitrators made IMO.
C'mon man. The TPA was definitive but that didn't stop JPOS from arguing that pilots with future training dates could keep their bids when it clearly stated in training or has completed training.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:14 PM   #44  
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Default The Way I See It

1. The SFO MOU gave displacement rights and training rights, but also stated the arb. award would take precedence.

2. The arb. award seems to contradict the MOU therefore there is a dispute between the company/CALALPA v UALALPA.

That's fine. What else is new. B U T.......this bid 14-02D is not on Skynet like every other CAL bid for all to see. I didn't even know about it. I would bet MOST UAL pilots don't know about it. WHere is the company communication? Is this a secret bid? I want to see who is involved and what the outcome is....just like every other bid, vacancy or displacement, in my 16 year career. NO GAMES. The company needs to man up and TELL us what is what. UFB.

Sled

Last edited by jsled; 09-24-2013 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:18 PM   #45  
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Sled,

Those involved will only man up when they are caught and forced to do so.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #46  
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Come on Skyflyin. The S-CAL guys are going to argue the meaning of "in the process of training". Who is your legal counsel now Bill Clinton?
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:21 PM   #47  
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Originally Posted by Birddog View Post
Damn Jsled,

You're a resourceful little monkey. It didn't take you long to find that gem.

I know I tried to wind you up earlier, but they are trying this. The game isn't over---they haven't "done" it yet.

You said you can wait a year? That wait from A-320 FO to 737 CA is $60,000. Still don't mind waiting?
Well lt. col. dog, they HAVE done it. It closed on the 16th. They could undo it I guess. And as for that year, I am a 767FO with pretty nice seniority. I would rather not jump into RSV on the Guppy and be crew scheds' whipping boy. A little ex-CON RSV cushion might be a good thing.

SLed the monkey
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:49 PM   #48  
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Originally Posted by Probe View Post
CALFO;
They are already flying inefficient trips. There won't be enough 80 hour months to go around. There simply won't be enough block hours.

Yes, some of the Captains will retire straight out of the 75 fleet. But most of the pilots will not. Bumping gives you a paid move, free PS commuter passes, and no training freeze. Few will bid off until they gut bumped. I wouldn't.

400 retirements a year is only 3% of our pilot group. This is nowhere near "massive". Just "normal". 3% a year for 33 years equals? All of us. This is simply a normal rate of retirement.
Every pilot at ual is already entitled to both a free merger move and as well as a career move. The percentage of retirements is closer to 4, but its not the percentage it's the numbers. 400 pilots leaving from the top of the food chain creates a ton of vacancies.

As for people not bidding off until they are bumped; again you are thinking downward not upward. During a reduction pilots get bumped down. Right now they can bid up. Do you really think that a mid level 757 cap that can now bid over to the 777 is going to sit around and wait to get bumped? I doubt it.
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:56 PM   #49  
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Originally Posted by CALFO View Post
Every pilot at ual is already entitled to both a free merger move and as well as a career move. The percentage of retirements is closer to 4, but its not the percentage it's the numbers. 400 pilots leaving from the top of the food chain creates a ton of vacancies.

As for people not bidding off until they are bumped; again you are thinking downward not upward. During a reduction pilots get bumped down. Right now they can bid up. Do you really think that a mid level 757 cap that can now bid over to the 777 is going to sit around and wait to get bumped? I doubt it.
You are correct, to a point. Take a look at Denver. 1978-1990 hired pilots holding 756 Captain there. Almost all live there. Most could have held 777 or 747 years ago if not a decade ago. Problem is, there is no 777 or 747 base in Denver. Those guys are not going to do anything until they have to. There will be bumps.

Sled
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:57 PM   #50  
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Here’s what I think is going on with the first combined United vacancy bid. The last S-CAL bid, Bid 14-02 , was offered and awarded earlier this year. Why would the company put out a huge bid like this when the company knew once the SLI Award & Opinion came out in late August/early September that the bids of those not in training would be cancelled? What was the Flight Operations plan for the post-ISL world?

The day the ISL was to be released, 3 September, Flight Operations manpower planning was said to have awarded Training Assignment’s (TAB’s) for Bid 14-02 but the agreements spell out these bids would be cancelled the next day. Why award the TAB’s? Then the ISL Award comes out and less than 72 hours later Flight Operation manpower sends out this CCS message:


Date: September 6, 2013 Expires: September 16, 2013 To: Pilots | From: Crew Resources/WHQCM

Displacement Awards Per 737 MOU

Eligible Pilots Only

The following only affects pilots who are entitled to a displacement pursuant to the 737 MOU dated July 10, 2013. This will only impact pilots who are not in training, have not received a training assignment bid (TAB) award, or have not been pay protected for an assignment.

If you have received a CCS message, you are eligible for displacement rights under the MOU above.
A pilot with displacement rights is permitted to remain in his/her staffed position, or select another category to which their seniority can hold, which may include your prior award. For this interim process, no pilot will be affected by another pilot exercising their displacement rights. However, if future analysis determines an excess of pilot staffing exists, there is the potential for category/BES displacements under section 8 of the contract.

Pilots who do not wish to change their staffed position do not need to respond to this bulletin.
To facilitate this decision, a Junior Pilot Table (sample below) will indicate the junior- most pilot assuming the future movements as of the most recent TAB. Pilots holding displacements will be counted in their present operating positions.

A pilot deciding to exercise displacement rights and select a new category must email that election to [email protected] by 0800 CDT September 16th. A printable form with required information for pilot election is provided on the following page. Should a pilot submit more than one form, only the last submission will be considered. An immediate return email response will be generated to confirm receipt of the request.

Upon Processing, participating pilots will receive CCS notice of the revised award. The revised award will be referenced as 14_02D for future reference.


As you see above this information was not communicated to the S-UAL pilots too. There has been a lack of communication that would add any clarity to this matter. Why hasn’t Flight Operations communicated their rationale for proceeding down this path? Then this CCS message came out:

CCS MESSAGE: DISPLACEMENT BIDDING AND AWARDS

The Company has notified via CCS message all pilots (and only those pilots) who have a displacement right due to the SFO MOU of the impending Displacement Bid 14-02D. That CCS message contains a link to a document explaining the Company's view of the process. If you believe you should have been included but did not receive the CCS message, you should contact the Grievance Committee at the union office to check, as well as put in a bid according to the requirements of the 14-02D bid. Click HERE to view the bid document (company login required).

We have had a number of inquiries about this bid. These are the important things to remember:

If you have not been trained, do not have a training date, or do not hold an award on the Oct or Nov TAB awards, then your position on System Bid 14-02 or 14-02A no longer exists. Instead, you now have a displacement right.

If you do nothing, the Company will assume that you want to stay in your currently staffed position.

You now have the right to bid into any Category provided there is someone junior to you on the ISL currently staffed in that Category.

You can bid for the position that was dissolved from System Bid 14-02 or 14-02A, or you can bid for something else, including any position on what was formerly known as the legacy UAL side.

The only position you cannot bid for is the B-744 (for former L-CAL pilots) and the B-787 (for former L-UAL pilots) because of the ISL conditions and restrictions contained in the Award. We do not know the plans for when the Company intends to train pilots who are awarded positions on this bid.[/SIZE]


So Flight Operations manpower sent out these CCS messages telling the S-CAL pilots they have displacement rights in violation of multiple agreements as you’ll see. None of this was communicated to the S-UAL pilots. The Junior Man tables used for displacement purposes now include the most junior pilot possessing a TAB, which means Flight Operations definitely planned then to train the TABs up to 01 Dec and use any junior dates within to determine displacement awards. Furthermore, the 14-02 pilots get not only a second at bat on bidding with a displacement, they also now get to bid S-UAL metal and domiciles if they like.

Here’s what the agreements spell out for Qualification Training Post-ISL.

From the ISL:


Pilots who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, are in the process of completing or who have completed qualification training for a new position (e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) may be assigned to the position for which they are being or have been trained, regardless of their relative standing on the Integrated Seniority List.

So any pilot who had not started training in the training center before 04 Sep 2013 should have had their training cancelled. However, according to the TPA Para 5 B-3:

(iii) The Integrated Seniority List shall not contain conditions or restrictions that substantially increase the costs associated with training above those normally associated with the merger of two airlines.

So the company is allowed to use their interpretation of what would substantially increase their training costs. So the company may have determined it would be too costly for them to cancel training dates before 01 Dec 2013.

But those whose training was cancelled are not entitled to bumping rights. This would effectively reward them for the delays up to this point and give them an award for training that should not exist. The SLI arbitrators even warned to protect these pilots would interfere with the fair operation of the ISL forever.

The SFO MOU doesn’t grant displacement rights to these pilots whose training is cancelled either. This is because of the following in the MOU:


In the event the decision and award of the SLI Arbitration Board Is in conflict with this agreement, the decision and award will prevail: however, in no case will a pilot who is pay protected to a position by this or other agreement lose his or her pay protection and position protection unless he voluntarily bids and is awarded a lower-numbered Equipment/pay band as set forth in Section 8-D-l-d on a subsequent vacancy or displacement bid in which case the pay protection will cease upon the activation date of that award.

Furthermore, the UPA doesn’t provide displacement rights for pilots whose training is cancelled either because it is not in effect until after the SLI.
From the UPA:


8 : Vacancies and Staffing

Implementation to be developed by the Joint Implementation Team (JIT) At SLI the JIT will develop a process to provide for combined bidding of vacancies


It is the company that will decide how the vacancy bidding process itself will proceed. The company knows how much the training pipeline can hold, future growth and reduction, domicile plans, etc. But the thorny issue is displacement rights for those pilots whose training is cancelled. The issue of displacements for pilots whose training is cancelled is contract basics. The company is a signatory to the Transition and Process Agreement (TPA), the United Pilot Agreement (UPA), the San Francisco Memorandum of Understanding (SFO MOU) and said they would enforce the Seniority List Integration (SLI) Award. What is in those agreements and discussed above appears to be black and white contract law about displacement rights for pilots whose training is cancelled---there are none. The company can unilaterally ignore agreements between us as they have sometimes done, but if that happens everyone loses from the resulting grievances, lawsuits, ill-will, etc. The Condition and Restriction (C&R) addressing Qualification Training is one of two Conditions and Restrictions (C&R's) in the SLI Award. The other C&R is Widebody Fences. Was the company’s plan to ignore one C&R and not the other?

I've pasted the pertinent portion of the C&R below because the Arbitrators words explain it best:


The CAL Committee’s training protection proposals include “a pilot who has been awarded a position but has not commenced or completed training.” (Emphasis added). That expanded definition would have the Board sweep into protective coverage some 400 CAL pilots awarded tentative February 2014 positions in the January 2013 CAL Bid 14-02. As of the close of these arbitration hearings, many of those individuals had not even been awarded a training date, let alone begun training. Moreover, treating them as “currently in” those positions or “in the process of completing training” would unilaterally rewrite language mutually agreed to by the CAL pilots, the UAL pilots and the Company (See TPA Section 5-B. Acceptance of the Integrated Seniority List, in Appendix 1).

There simply is no fair and equitable basis for this Board to award what the CAL Committee proposes. Under the guise of protecting pilots from displacement from “then-current positions”, it would extend such protection to pilots who don’t actually have such positions at all. In short, if granted, it would interfere with the fair operation of the ISL forever by placing CAL pilots immovably in positions that their ISL seniority would not entitle them to hold. For all of those reasons, this Board did not adopt the CAL Committees' proposed C&R Numbers 1(b) and 1(c).

Some people say don’t worry retirements will allow advancement. Yes, retirement may lessen the impact of granting displacement rights to pilots whose training was cancelled. But the airline industry is a turbulent industry. So let's what if the worse case. The company grants displacement rights to these pilots whose training is cancelled. This will impact everyone's ability to bid vacancies in the future. Then a year down the road the economy hits a brick wall, hiring stops, and pilots that would have bid and been awarded 737 Captain are now stranded as first officers for years while pilots junior to them are Captains. What if the so-called pilot shortage is used to lift all age restrictions for pilots a year down the road and pilots were unable to bid the seat they wanted to due to being blocked be one of these displaced pilots? We could what if this to death. The what if's are eliminated if the agreements are followed as they are spelled out. The agreements offer clarity.

The issue is there are no displacement rights for pilots whose training was cancelled and it is clearly contained within these four contracts and agreements, and as we are all aware a contract is a contract. Furthermore, retirements creating advancement doesn't lessen the fact granting of displacement rights to these pilots is a violation of the seniority rights of ALL pilots at United Airlines. Seniority is sacrosanct in a union and to throw seniority out with the bath water on this issue would be a tragedy.

So Flight Operations is very determined in granting displacement rights to these pilots. But it doesn’t end there. I thought that the S-UAL 757 bumps would ripple through the system and slightly bring the S-CAL 737/757 Captain Junior Man numbers down to something more reasonably aligned with the completed ISL. I also was amazed the company would spend the money to train the Bid 14-02 displaced pilots and then have to pay once again when the most junior will likely require retraining from being displaced a second time from the 757 bumps. But it appears that Flight Operations wants to protect the Bid 14-02 group after they exercise their displacements from ever being displaced. I would guess this will likely be done by throttling vacancies and overstaffing domiciles (affects profits). The latest S-UAL SSC newsletter alludes to this:


The company is planning to deal with reductions, if needed, primarily with attrition. If this is not completely effective, there will be Displacements between vacancy bids. The UPA displacement process is completely different from Vacancy Bids and will be explained at a later date.

So the pilots from the 14-02D bid will act as “blockers” delaying the chance for all United pilots to use their seniority rights to bid what should be vacancies. The impact of an improper decision here will affect ALL pilots at United Airlines. And for what purpose? The ill-will and lawsuits from this will be poison for years. I believe an alternative would be just call the Arbitrator and ask him what they meant to happen or we could use use the Arbitration Dispute Resolution process. This will be decided and I believe decided correctly.
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