Leaving Delta for UPS?- 2021
09-04-2021, 08:30 PM
#12
Swimmer
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: A300 FO, C-130 Pilot
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by FTv3
So it appears you have convinced yourself on paper it’s a justified move. Yet, inside you aren’t quite as sure, hence the post here?
Originally Posted by FTv3
You specified your only real motivation for jumping to UPS is to live in domicile, yet life isn’t bad commuting to ATL. As far as commuting goes, it doesn’t get much easier than yours. Your math on this seems accurate but you’d really have to look at your TAFH (H=home) flying at Brown in base vs. commuting at DAL to have a useful comparison. And don’t forget that at UPS you’re gunna come home and be useless for a day or two sometimes. Just the nature of the beast with the hours we fly here but you should factor that in too as lost time. Also, you’re going to trade 6 yrs of seniority to start over, be on probation again (some potential risk there) for $45/hr, losing travel bennys, a fair chance you might not even get louisville right off the bat and have an even worse commute (ONT, ANC, MIA). Even getting SDF, I can tell you the days of guys sitting reserve at home not getting called out are probably over for good - don’t expect to have overly incredible amounts of time at home, especially being junior.
Originally Posted by FTv3
Taking another leap, I wonder if you’re minimizing the difference in corporate cultures too much. Yeah, I’ve argued for years in these threads that UPS is tolerable but it’s still somewhat of miserable place to work. The open lack of integrity gets harder to swallow by the year not to mention the difference in safety culture between the two companies. The contract we have is awesome but the people we work for put a big stain on whatever joy we might get out of it. Just make sure you know what you’re getting into.
Originally Posted by FTv3
The back side of the clock flying we do is also something to factor in - there’s a lot of it and it all sucks no matter how good you get at dealing with it. Yes, you can find good day flying especially living in domicile but youre gunna give up a lot of flexibility to hold those schedules and are still only 1 revision away from the night flying. Even international is starting to go downhill with 24hr layovers plaguing the bid package and utter chaos for anything that touches Asia these days. FYI - There’s tons of info in these threads with lots of specifics. Search night flying, UPS schedules or look at posts by me under FTFF username.
Originally Posted by FTv3
Overall, I’d say it’s not worth it. Maybe if you only had a year or 2 at Delta or a crappy commute, or have a personal situation demanding more time in SDF you could argue otherwise. At best it’s a lateral move that requires a setback. Not sure if this helps but I have a little over 6 years here; though a little reluctant about doing it, I’d trade places with you if I could. Last, consider these 2 time honored platitudes: “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it,” and, “No balls, no glory.”
Originally Posted by FTv3
Good luck with you decision. Hope some of this info helps.
09-04-2021, 09:01 PM
#13
Occasional box hauler
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,683
I don’t know anyone who has spent a significant time at a major/legacy pax carrier then made the jump to UPS.
I wouldn’t say it is the most common thing. However, you do see some of it. The reasons I have heard vary from looking for greater stability (worries about displacement/furloughs significantly affecting income), local to a UPS domicile, and a lot of guys who were actually furloughed from their legacy came to UPS and chose to never go back (more common among guys who came here in the 90s and 2000s).
It is not a risk free decision, but you will likely be better off financially at UPS and living in domicile is tough to beat. Sure, first year will combine bad pay with minimal seniority. However, we are growing and supposedly the CEO wants to order additional jets to those already on the books. Guys are wiped out right now because we have been swamped with business (especially in Asia) and international flying is just a rolling train wreck between hotel lockdowns and constant trip revisions. I’ve been here over three years and am at roughly 70% system seniority and around 49% in my fleet/seat. The top half of the seniority list will be retired between now and 2029, so it’s very likely that 4-5 years will be first available upgrade (probably ONT 75, A300, SDF 75 in that order), which would beat when you would choose to upgrade at Delta. Tough decision to make, but congrats on putting yourself in the position to have the choice.
I wouldn’t say it is the most common thing. However, you do see some of it. The reasons I have heard vary from looking for greater stability (worries about displacement/furloughs significantly affecting income), local to a UPS domicile, and a lot of guys who were actually furloughed from their legacy came to UPS and chose to never go back (more common among guys who came here in the 90s and 2000s).
It is not a risk free decision, but you will likely be better off financially at UPS and living in domicile is tough to beat. Sure, first year will combine bad pay with minimal seniority. However, we are growing and supposedly the CEO wants to order additional jets to those already on the books. Guys are wiped out right now because we have been swamped with business (especially in Asia) and international flying is just a rolling train wreck between hotel lockdowns and constant trip revisions. I’ve been here over three years and am at roughly 70% system seniority and around 49% in my fleet/seat. The top half of the seniority list will be retired between now and 2029, so it’s very likely that 4-5 years will be first available upgrade (probably ONT 75, A300, SDF 75 in that order), which would beat when you would choose to upgrade at Delta. Tough decision to make, but congrats on putting yourself in the position to have the choice.
09-04-2021, 10:14 PM
#14
Where's my Mai Tai?
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: fins to the left, fins to the right
Posts: 1,730
Since it's purely a personal choice, my comment won't help. Went to college with the guy who will retire number 1 at Delta also with the guy who will retire number 1 at UPS. Both are happy with their choices.
Shockingly enough, another college classmate would've been top 5 at Delta left for UPS. Some days were better than others, but he is definitely happy with his choice.
Upgrade should not be 13 year s for you BTW.
Shockingly enough, another college classmate would've been top 5 at Delta left for UPS. Some days were better than others, but he is definitely happy with his choice.
Upgrade should not be 13 year s for you BTW.
09-05-2021, 03:53 AM
#15
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,512
Giving up six years of seniority at arguably the top legacy is a gamble, there's no two ways about it.
That being said...
Already living in SDF, you'll have a ton of options to find your niche as you build seniority but even being junior you should have some flexibility. My first few years here, reserve living in domicile was a really good deal. Things changed a bit both for me and the Company, so I went to morning turns to maximize home time and it worked out well. For others, airport "hot" standby works for them, for some its day flying, for some its shorter trips (base trip lines), for some its week on/off, for some its international...some bid seasonally, some bid depending on what their days off needs are.
Our retirement wave has been pulled forward some due to early retirements (which have been 2-3x mandatory the last few years) but we really hit that in earnest starting 2025 retiring triple digits a year and it runs for a decade. Fully 1/3 of our pilot group has been hired since Contract 2016 was ratified. Volume growing faster than hiring has caused short staffing, which causes schedules to be optimized, which combined with COVID nonsense causes pilots who are 60 and entitled to their defined benefit pension to retire early, which further exacerbates short staffing...and the snake has continued to eat its tail for a couple years now.
I'm sure you've seen the recent DALPA Contract Comparison that came out; our vacation and health insurance benefits are substantially better than Delta.
I've frequently said "this job ain't for everybody"...but it is a very good place to collect a check driving airplanes. Show up when you're supposed to show up, fly plane, collect banana, go home, forget about work while you're off. Based on what my friends at Southwest, American, United and even Delta say...we're all basically dealing with the same kinda crap from our employers, it just has different garnish.
That being said...
Already living in SDF, you'll have a ton of options to find your niche as you build seniority but even being junior you should have some flexibility. My first few years here, reserve living in domicile was a really good deal. Things changed a bit both for me and the Company, so I went to morning turns to maximize home time and it worked out well. For others, airport "hot" standby works for them, for some its day flying, for some its shorter trips (base trip lines), for some its week on/off, for some its international...some bid seasonally, some bid depending on what their days off needs are.
Our retirement wave has been pulled forward some due to early retirements (which have been 2-3x mandatory the last few years) but we really hit that in earnest starting 2025 retiring triple digits a year and it runs for a decade. Fully 1/3 of our pilot group has been hired since Contract 2016 was ratified. Volume growing faster than hiring has caused short staffing, which causes schedules to be optimized, which combined with COVID nonsense causes pilots who are 60 and entitled to their defined benefit pension to retire early, which further exacerbates short staffing...and the snake has continued to eat its tail for a couple years now.
I'm sure you've seen the recent DALPA Contract Comparison that came out; our vacation and health insurance benefits are substantially better than Delta.
I've frequently said "this job ain't for everybody"...but it is a very good place to collect a check driving airplanes. Show up when you're supposed to show up, fly plane, collect banana, go home, forget about work while you're off. Based on what my friends at Southwest, American, United and even Delta say...we're all basically dealing with the same kinda crap from our employers, it just has different garnish.
09-05-2021, 04:06 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: Relaxing
Posts: 235
If you have friends at UPS, have them give you a schedule and look at the type of flying they can hold. Compare to what you can hold at Delta. You were hired at at the beginning of the wave at Delta, but who knows what will happen at UPS. I seriously doubt you would see the kinda of deal at UPS Delta offered when COVID started. UPS has and will furlough. Atlanta has a lot of flights and you could drive. Unless you absolutely hate the commute and the passenger side, I'd stay at Delta.
09-05-2021, 04:39 AM
#17
On Reserve
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by McBoeingBus
If you have friends at UPS, have them give you a schedule and look at the type of flying they can hold. Compare to what you can hold at Delta. You were hired at at the beginning of the wave at Delta, but who knows what will happen at UPS. I seriously doubt you would see the kinda of deal at UPS Delta offered when COVID started. UPS has and will furlough. Atlanta has a lot of flights and you could drive. Unless you absolutely hate the commute and the passenger side, I'd stay at Delta.
09-05-2021, 06:10 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 919
I’d say you’re in a good position where either choice won’t come with much if any regret, and your career is in a great spot, which is a blessing in itself. The only thing I’ll add has to do with culture and the negative perception UPS has. While it is an extremely odd management setup, and UPS absolutely does not care about you in the least, it’s a fantastic job if you just look at it for what it is. Come to work, do your job, go home, and it’s an amazing life with many benefits. The IPA had made it this way and deserve a million thanks.
I’ve worked at several airlines and I’ve yet to see a great or even good management labor relationship. So while UPS does come with unique challenges, it’s not very different from other airlines if you ask me. Our contract and union stand out far beyond anything I’ve seen or even heard about though.
Last thing I’ll add being an SDF native is QOL is top notch and the sole reason I picked UPS. You can have a great career anywhere for the most part, but being home with family cannot be over valued.
I’ve worked at several airlines and I’ve yet to see a great or even good management labor relationship. So while UPS does come with unique challenges, it’s not very different from other airlines if you ask me. Our contract and union stand out far beyond anything I’ve seen or even heard about though.
Last thing I’ll add being an SDF native is QOL is top notch and the sole reason I picked UPS. You can have a great career anywhere for the most part, but being home with family cannot be over valued.
09-05-2021, 07:01 AM
#20
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 923
Originally Posted by FTv3
So it appears you have convinced yourself on paper it’s a justified move. Yet, inside you aren’t quite as sure, hence the post here?
You specified your only real motivation for jumping to UPS is to live in domicile, yet life isn’t bad commuting to ATL. As far as commuting goes, it doesn’t get much easier than yours. Your math on this seems accurate but you’d really have to look at your TAFH (H=home) flying at Brown in base vs. commuting at DAL to have a useful comparison. And don’t forget that at UPS you’re gunna come home and be useless for a day or two sometimes. Just the nature of the beast with the hours we fly here but you should factor that in too as lost time. Also, you’re going to trade 6 yrs of seniority to start over, be on probation again (some potential risk there) for $45/hr, losing travel bennys, a fair chance you might not even get louisville right off the bat and have an even worse commute (ONT, ANC, MIA). Even getting SDF, I can tell you the days of guys sitting reserve at home not getting called out are probably over for good - don’t expect to have overly incredible amounts of time at home, especially being junior.
Taking another leap, I wonder if you’re minimizing the difference in corporate cultures too much. Yeah, I’ve argued for years in these threads that UPS is tolerable but it’s still somewhat of miserable place to work. The open lack of integrity gets harder to swallow by the year not to mention the difference in safety culture between the two companies. The contract we have is awesome but the people we work for put a big stain on whatever joy we might get out of it. Just make sure you know what you’re getting into.
The back side of the clock flying we do is also something to factor in - there’s a lot of it and it all sucks no matter how good you get at dealing with it. Yes, you can find good day flying especially living in domicile but youre gunna give up a lot of flexibility to hold those schedules and are still only 1 revision away from the night flying. Even international is starting to go downhill with 24hr layovers plaguing the bid package and utter chaos for anything that touches Asia these days. FYI - There’s tons of info in these threads with lots of specifics. Search night flying, UPS schedules or look at posts by me under FTFF username.
Overall, I’d say it’s not worth it. Maybe if you only had a year or 2 at Delta or a crappy commute, or have a personal situation demanding more time in SDF you could argue otherwise. At best it’s a lateral move that requires a setback. Not sure if this helps but I have a little over 6 years here; though a little reluctant about doing it, I’d trade places with you if I could. Last, consider these 2 time honored platitudes: “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it,” and, “No balls, no glory.”
Good luck with you decision. Hope some of this info helps.
You specified your only real motivation for jumping to UPS is to live in domicile, yet life isn’t bad commuting to ATL. As far as commuting goes, it doesn’t get much easier than yours. Your math on this seems accurate but you’d really have to look at your TAFH (H=home) flying at Brown in base vs. commuting at DAL to have a useful comparison. And don’t forget that at UPS you’re gunna come home and be useless for a day or two sometimes. Just the nature of the beast with the hours we fly here but you should factor that in too as lost time. Also, you’re going to trade 6 yrs of seniority to start over, be on probation again (some potential risk there) for $45/hr, losing travel bennys, a fair chance you might not even get louisville right off the bat and have an even worse commute (ONT, ANC, MIA). Even getting SDF, I can tell you the days of guys sitting reserve at home not getting called out are probably over for good - don’t expect to have overly incredible amounts of time at home, especially being junior.
Taking another leap, I wonder if you’re minimizing the difference in corporate cultures too much. Yeah, I’ve argued for years in these threads that UPS is tolerable but it’s still somewhat of miserable place to work. The open lack of integrity gets harder to swallow by the year not to mention the difference in safety culture between the two companies. The contract we have is awesome but the people we work for put a big stain on whatever joy we might get out of it. Just make sure you know what you’re getting into.
The back side of the clock flying we do is also something to factor in - there’s a lot of it and it all sucks no matter how good you get at dealing with it. Yes, you can find good day flying especially living in domicile but youre gunna give up a lot of flexibility to hold those schedules and are still only 1 revision away from the night flying. Even international is starting to go downhill with 24hr layovers plaguing the bid package and utter chaos for anything that touches Asia these days. FYI - There’s tons of info in these threads with lots of specifics. Search night flying, UPS schedules or look at posts by me under FTFF username.
Overall, I’d say it’s not worth it. Maybe if you only had a year or 2 at Delta or a crappy commute, or have a personal situation demanding more time in SDF you could argue otherwise. At best it’s a lateral move that requires a setback. Not sure if this helps but I have a little over 6 years here; though a little reluctant about doing it, I’d trade places with you if I could. Last, consider these 2 time honored platitudes: “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it,” and, “No balls, no glory.”
Good luck with you decision. Hope some of this info helps.
If you weren’t furloughed after the biggest drop in flying in aviation history, nothing is certain in life, but sincerely doubt you will ever get furloughed. The original op ed post is also the best I have seen. 6 years at Delta, easy commute, fairly stable seniority level, I hands down say stay. 1-3 years of seniority, barring company culture, go. While I do think the UPS job is very stable, 6 years is a lot to give up to assume some risk. And I wouldn’t put it past UPS if they furloughed at the first chance they get.
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