Leaving Delta for UPS?- 2021
09-06-2021, 07:46 AM
#31
Occasional box hauler
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,686
Fleet Growth: Significant fleet growth or a larger seniority list with the current fleet would justify earlier upgrade times. Maybe this is the aspect I'm missing. It's my understanding UPS has 8 aircraft on order? Are these just to replace the MD? The "better not bigger" strategy seems to make me think UPS will prefer to continue offering 150% on open time pick up to avoid fleet growth.
The MD replacement has not been not been announced yet. The CEO has characterized that as a cost of maintaining the system in comments to investors. The 8 on order are all growth that started under the previous CEO. The current CEO has directly told the union she would like to have 14 additional tails (above current orders) on property by the end of 2022/early 2023. So growth is already baked in, but obviously those extra 14 are speculative at this point. Finally, I would anticipate the company continuing to prefer running lean going forward for all the obvious reasons. Assuming those 8 firm orders, plus at least some of the additional 14 show up, you would be looking at upgrading NLT your timeframe at Delta. The airline (especially internationally) has been making a lot of money for the company since Covid hit.
The MD replacement has not been not been announced yet. The CEO has characterized that as a cost of maintaining the system in comments to investors. The 8 on order are all growth that started under the previous CEO. The current CEO has directly told the union she would like to have 14 additional tails (above current orders) on property by the end of 2022/early 2023. So growth is already baked in, but obviously those extra 14 are speculative at this point. Finally, I would anticipate the company continuing to prefer running lean going forward for all the obvious reasons. Assuming those 8 firm orders, plus at least some of the additional 14 show up, you would be looking at upgrading NLT your timeframe at Delta. The airline (especially internationally) has been making a lot of money for the company since Covid hit.
09-06-2021, 08:02 AM
#32
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,516
Junior CA award at UPS generally runs 65%, give or take 5%. On the June 2021 vacancy bid, the junior CA award (ONT 757) went to a June 2016 hire.
Our retirements have run 2-3x mandatory over the last three years.
We are understaffed. While the Company likes lean staffing, I believe current staffing is on the detonation side of lean for the needs of the network and this is reflected in frequency of JA calls, Management Emergency Flying, and an agreement that all opentime pickup pays like a JA for the previous four weeks and next eight weeks.
From October 2017 through December 2022, UPS Airlines will have grown by 53 airframes. It has been reported that there are 14 additional TBD airframes budgeted for, to be delivered 2023 or later, but no orders have been announced.
Bus does less east coast-sit sort-west coast night stuff than the 757 or MD due to speed, but it does more 3-4 leg duty periods. West coast flying has increased the last year. Seniority progression as a new FO should be decent, as few people bid to Bus FO from other fleets but lots of Bus FOs bid to international fleets once their transition freeze expires (18 months for newhires). The amount of 24hr layovers on the Bus is relatively minimal; 12-16hr is much much more common. There's some nice layovers on the Bus, some of which are longish, but don't have an unrealistic expectation of what is coming - they aren't like Caribbean 73N layovers at Delter.
Our retirements have run 2-3x mandatory over the last three years.
We are understaffed. While the Company likes lean staffing, I believe current staffing is on the detonation side of lean for the needs of the network and this is reflected in frequency of JA calls, Management Emergency Flying, and an agreement that all opentime pickup pays like a JA for the previous four weeks and next eight weeks.
From October 2017 through December 2022, UPS Airlines will have grown by 53 airframes. It has been reported that there are 14 additional TBD airframes budgeted for, to be delivered 2023 or later, but no orders have been announced.
Bus does less east coast-sit sort-west coast night stuff than the 757 or MD due to speed, but it does more 3-4 leg duty periods. West coast flying has increased the last year. Seniority progression as a new FO should be decent, as few people bid to Bus FO from other fleets but lots of Bus FOs bid to international fleets once their transition freeze expires (18 months for newhires). The amount of 24hr layovers on the Bus is relatively minimal; 12-16hr is much much more common. There's some nice layovers on the Bus, some of which are longish, but don't have an unrealistic expectation of what is coming - they aren't like Caribbean 73N layovers at Delter.
09-06-2021, 08:20 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2021
Posts: 1,114
Has UPS called you for an interview ?
Not sure I would "start over" as a "new guy" at another company. You likely know or have a working relationship with the various check airman and instructors at Delta, you know the HR system/benefits, etc.
It just seems excruciating being back in new-hire training and rolling the dice on your love for your new airplane, after 8 years at a "respectable" company. I "get it" regarding the commute but Louisville to Atlanta is like 1.5 hours non-stop, with no time zone change. Delta is arguably the top tier for the Big-3, and you are there.
I would probably stay, based on what you posted.
My opinion
Not sure I would "start over" as a "new guy" at another company. You likely know or have a working relationship with the various check airman and instructors at Delta, you know the HR system/benefits, etc.
It just seems excruciating being back in new-hire training and rolling the dice on your love for your new airplane, after 8 years at a "respectable" company. I "get it" regarding the commute but Louisville to Atlanta is like 1.5 hours non-stop, with no time zone change. Delta is arguably the top tier for the Big-3, and you are there.
I would probably stay, based on what you posted.
My opinion
09-06-2021, 08:49 AM
#34
Social Media retired.
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 777
Originally Posted by MTSUFlyer
A lot of great info on here. Thanks everyone for your input.
In regards to upgrade times, the numbers I have are telling me that it will take unit 2034 for someone hired today to get to 50% on the seniority list. This is based off of mandatory retirements only. There's been a couple comments on here as well as several of my UPS buddies that think that someone hired today could upgrade on a junior fleet (A300 or ONT) in anywhere from 4-8 years. That's a big difference from 13 years. The three things I see that support ~13 years are:
-44% of the seniority list having been hired sine 2012. Most my buddies that are telling me 4-8 years were hired anywhere from 1-5 years ago with most of them hired in 2017. At the point they were hired, only 15% of the seniority list was new hirers. They were at the beginning of the wave and I could see very quick upgrades for them.
-Mandatory Retirement Numbers: I attached a screen shot of the mandatory retirements that shows 50% of the seniority list will retire by 2034. It's not really possible to account for guys retiring early, but I know that COVID has convinced a lot of guys to retire early. Who knows if that trend will continue.
-Fleet Growth: Significant fleet growth or a larger seniority list with the current fleet would justify earlier upgrade times. Maybe this is the aspect I'm missing. It's my understanding UPS has 8 aircraft on order? Are these just to replace the MD? The "better not bigger" strategy seems to make me think UPS will prefer to continue offering 150% on open time pick up to avoid fleet growth.
Can someone comment on what's the rationale supporting 4-8 years?
On a separate note, a big benefit I hear about UPS is that the block time to total pay ratio is a lot lower. At Delta, assuming no premium pay, my block to pay ratio is about 80%. Most of my UPS buddies are in the 60's with a wide range anywhere from 55-80% depending on their fleet. The block time at Delta might be higher but I can say I truly enjoyed going to work here (pre-covid). My ideal trip is a 3 or 4 day with a 20-30 hour Caribbean layover. In 2019, I was getting a couple of those a month. I've read on here quite a bit about the different types of trips. Specifically on the A300 (top of my dream sheet), I've heard that it goes south of the border and the slower cruise speed tends to drive more layovers. Are there comparable layover options? Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips a lot of my UPS buddies prefer to do.
In regards to upgrade times, the numbers I have are telling me that it will take unit 2034 for someone hired today to get to 50% on the seniority list. This is based off of mandatory retirements only. There's been a couple comments on here as well as several of my UPS buddies that think that someone hired today could upgrade on a junior fleet (A300 or ONT) in anywhere from 4-8 years. That's a big difference from 13 years. The three things I see that support ~13 years are:
-44% of the seniority list having been hired sine 2012. Most my buddies that are telling me 4-8 years were hired anywhere from 1-5 years ago with most of them hired in 2017. At the point they were hired, only 15% of the seniority list was new hirers. They were at the beginning of the wave and I could see very quick upgrades for them.
-Mandatory Retirement Numbers: I attached a screen shot of the mandatory retirements that shows 50% of the seniority list will retire by 2034. It's not really possible to account for guys retiring early, but I know that COVID has convinced a lot of guys to retire early. Who knows if that trend will continue.
-Fleet Growth: Significant fleet growth or a larger seniority list with the current fleet would justify earlier upgrade times. Maybe this is the aspect I'm missing. It's my understanding UPS has 8 aircraft on order? Are these just to replace the MD? The "better not bigger" strategy seems to make me think UPS will prefer to continue offering 150% on open time pick up to avoid fleet growth.
Can someone comment on what's the rationale supporting 4-8 years?
On a separate note, a big benefit I hear about UPS is that the block time to total pay ratio is a lot lower. At Delta, assuming no premium pay, my block to pay ratio is about 80%. Most of my UPS buddies are in the 60's with a wide range anywhere from 55-80% depending on their fleet. The block time at Delta might be higher but I can say I truly enjoyed going to work here (pre-covid). My ideal trip is a 3 or 4 day with a 20-30 hour Caribbean layover. In 2019, I was getting a couple of those a month. I've read on here quite a bit about the different types of trips. Specifically on the A300 (top of my dream sheet), I've heard that it goes south of the border and the slower cruise speed tends to drive more layovers. Are there comparable layover options? Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips a lot of my UPS buddies prefer to do.
- Upgrade times - historically, we have a lot of bypass bidders which will speed up the time for those wanting early upgrades.
- yes, you aren’t catching the early part of the hiring wave but you aren’t on the tail end either
- Fleet - no one knows but you are correct that UPS has been and always will be highly reluctant to expand the airline. See BoilerUP’s data above.
- Block times - we are usually paid on rig, soft time, whatever. 3-400 block hours per year would be my guess for the groups annual average.
- Beach destinations - this is not the airline for that. Just not our market. There’s some SJU but I don’t know which fleet is doing it - seems to bounce around. HNL on the 74 and MD. 76 does a little Hawaii too. 3-4 day trips to a beach resort doesn’t happen on any fleet.
- Airbus isn’t really known for having the best schedules. Seems a lot of guys are bidding off because the schedules have gotten bad on the thing.
- “Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips”. Absolutely correct but we don’t really have short trips with long layovers in any sort of frequency on any fleet. On the bus it’s a lot of week on week off night sort, turns, then the mixed bag lines.
- If I were you, I’d jumpseat through our system this week or next. Go SDF - PHL - SDF or EWR, DFW and do the ones that start at 3am and get back around noon. See what you think of the schedule, the crews, the operation.
I’m not going to elaborate on the reasons I’d hypothetically trade spots with you cuz this thread is about your reasons and the point I was trying to make is that some of us here think this is the cat’s ahss of flying jobs while others (like me) shrug our shoulders a bit.
For getting a better idea of the UPS employee culture here’s the best example I can come up with:
Years ago I banked with WashingtonMutual. I had direct deposit, checking card, etc., everything worked fine. Yet, there was always something when dealing with that bank. An incorrect ATM fee here, a BS overdraft fee there (the games they’d play with when things would post to your account), surprise fees for this or that. That all wasn’t actually the problem. The problem was when you tried to deal with them, everything was a fight; you were always in the wrong. I had to prove the ATM was in their network. I had to prove they delayed certain deposits / transfers. Sometimes they’d recant and do what was right but more often they would just tell me to go screw myself. Cannot tell you how happy I was to switch to a credit union. The difference was so tangible that I stayed away from the big banks for over 15 years and still prefer my credit union (DECU ironically) today.
UPS is like WaMu. Sure, you can deal with it and live your life, but it’s just unpleasant. Like having a toxic person in your close circle. You have to be a lawyer here: screen shot everything, record phone calls, go over your paycheck with a fine tooth comb. Then you have to fight, often with people who never pick up their phone or bother to call you back or wait a week or two before responding to your email, if ever. Then you have to watch like a hawk everything they do to you scheduling wise which is a royal pain in the rear because we have not only have a very complex contract but you also have to incorporate the meaning and intent articles and grievance history precedents to know exactly what the provisions are. The company will lie, cheat, and blatantly disregard the contract on a regular basis. No, usually not in big, vulgar ways, just little things here and there. Not the end of the world and you can learn to live with it but given the choice, would you want to, voluntarily?
Last edited by FTv3; 09-06-2021 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Remove repeat info from others posts. Typos
09-06-2021, 01:23 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,930
Originally Posted by Braniff DC8
MTSU, listen to FTv3, he’s spot on! I would in no way give up six years at Delta to start over anywhere. You might not realise how lucky you are to even have the opportunites you have. Night cargo to places like Hong Kong aern’t something to look forward to. Six pilots were recently detained in Hong Kong and sent to a Hong Kong hospital for 21 days because of the Covid nonsense. I think one of those would convince you you made a bad decision. Also, be aware you will highly likely be commuting to ANC for a while. You might get SDF and eventually will but, your lifestyle and type of job, will change significantly.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
09-06-2021, 01:35 PM
#36
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 923
Originally Posted by FTv3
UPS is like WaMu. Sure, you can deal with it and live your life, but it’s just unpleasant. Like having a toxic person in your close circle. You have to be a lawyer here: screen shot everything, record phone calls, go over your paycheck with a fine tooth comb. Then you have to The company will lie, cheat, and blatantly disregard the contract on a regular basis. No, usually not in big, vulgar ways, just little things here and there. Not the end of the world and you can learn to live with it but given the choice, would you want to, voluntarily?
09-06-2021, 01:45 PM
#37
maxing the min/Moderator
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: 757
Posts: 1,357
The OP stated “This month I’m planning to leave Delta to start at UPS.”. So I assume that means he starts this week..if thts the case shld know whether he is in the heavy or light class. That will narrow down on alot of guessing about commuting to ANC. You will always have the 10% who will be miserable no matter where they are or what they are doing. They are not the norm. Probs at every airline…ebb and flows…comes and goes. Life is so much more enjoyable if don’t you take yourself or your job too seriously.
09-06-2021, 01:51 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 161
The crux of it and what makes this such a personal choice is that how important each pro/con is to you is so subjective. You can absolutely make a long pro/con list for each, as you have done, and include all the points everyone else has given you. Honestly, those are fairly easy to compile at this point with just minimal research on here and elsewhere. The tough nut to crack is deciding the value of each. Every pro/con is not a 1 for 1. To me, not commuting would probably outweigh the first 20 pros put together on the other side. Some people might not care about commuting but value pay/no passengers/whatever way higher than anything. So even if one side seems to have less benefits, if one or a couple of those are worth more than all the opposing ones put together, try to figure that out. Also, being in base just about anywhere is worth a 10-20% seniority bump vs commuting somewhere else because of all the possibilities it opens up re: upgrades, what you can bid for month to month, etc. Six years is a big seniority hit, but I would argue if you are going from six years seniority at a place you commute to vs year one at a place where you are in domicile at their main base probably cuts the seniority hit down by at least half.
09-07-2021, 02:34 AM
#39
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Posts: 16
Same...but different
Originally Posted by MTSUFlyer
Hey all,
Any insight would be much appreciated. Here's the situation...
Any insight would be much appreciated. Here's the situation...
1. I'm Year One at Delta
2. My family and I are planning to move to ATL (or SDF) sometime in the next few years to live in domicile. We have no attachment to either city, they are equally appealing (Oldham County looks like Peachtree City with fewer golf carts, more horses)
I'll keep following the thread. For all those saying they wouldn't make the jump in year 6...what about year 1?
My priorities:
- Time at home with family (# days home) & vacation.
- Not hating my job (I can deal with not loving it)
Factors, but lower priorities:
- Seniority: as a year 1 at Delta, there have been MANY hired before me in the last decade. I think UPS wins this one, even with the recent hires in the last 5 years.
- Scheduling: I hate staying up to 5 AM as much as I hate going to bed early to wake up at 5 AM. Coming from a cargo background in the military, I know swapping circadian is worse...but for me, personally, it's not that much worse than starting a 12 hour, 4 leg day with an 0600 showtime.
- Block Time v. Credit: I just discovered this. All my UPS friends are flying 30-40 hours a month...Delta is significantly higher for similar credit.
- Time/ability for teleworking (virtual friendly) side hustles...the airline isn't the only thing I've got going on.
Non Factor:
- Pay, Benefits, Retirement and total compensation is close enough to be a wash (I also did a ton of research and built out the spreadsheet just to arrive at the same conclusion). I know everything about the A/B plans, profit sharing, pension, etc. I'll be happy with my pay at either company.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
