jetlaggy

Curious what your seniority is cause I feel like we fly for 2 diff airlines.

robxjt27

Early 2017. I think the people hired in early 2017 have about 1100 people under them on the seniority list.

C2078, you forgot to mention the good side of UPS. We can now wear our natural hair styles and show off our tattoo (sleeves) too.

flyguy23

There are certain types that take on the stress of everyone’s problems. He’s reading the B&G and seeing issues that people are having, and then lumping them together as if they are everyone’s experience all of the time.

Ive had an occasional issue with scheduling or pay, but it’s incredibly rare. Reading the forums, you’d think it was every pilot almost every month. It’s not.

It’s been an overall peaceful existence at Brown, especially if you can tune out the unnecessary BS.

jetlaggy

The prob would be taking any of the miserable folks on the B&G seriously. Its the same folks lying and patting each other on the back for lying over and over again. Not worth a second of your concern or stress. 99% BS.

MTSUFlyer

I'll be glad to talk to you about Oldham County. That's where I live. Wife is a school teacher so I can answer questions about the schools, etc. PM me if you want more info.


Block Hours, TAFB, and Vacation:
Time at home will be maximized by living in domicile. Since you could live in either domicile, I think it’s close to a wash. Might have less TAFB (time away from base) at UPS (i.e. time home) but you might be sleeping during that time while the family is awake. You'll fly less block hour at UPS and UPS has better vacation policy. Even though technically the vacation accumulation rate is the same at UPS and Delta (i.e. 2 weeks for the first 6 years, then 3 weeks until year 12, then 4 weeks until year 20, etc), how you use it and how much each day of vacation is worth favors UPS. For example, at Delta a vacation day is worth 3.75 hours for the first 14 days, then 3.5 hours for any days over 14. At UPS, each day is worth 5 hours, but if you have 14 days of vacation in a bid period, you can drop the whole month for full (75 hours) pay. There's also different vacation rules (OCV) unique to UPS that allow more flexibility. I don't really understand OCV but I think it allows you to add vacation days to your schedule on top of a trip. The trip would be dropped and you would be paid for the full value of the trip. Caveat: crew scheduling can then add a trip (prior to or after your vacation period) onto your schedule within the footprint of the dropped trip to recoup some flying out of you.

Enjoyment:
As far as the enjoyment of the job, I really think it’s a combination of finding your niche and what you make of it. Living in domicile is the number one way to not hate it, IMHO. One pilot’s trash is another pilot’s treasure. It might take a little time (and seniority), but I think you could enjoy either job equally well. Several have touched on the differences in culture. I can’t really speak to the difference since I only know Delta. I can tell you morale is high at Delta for the most part, despite COVID and the optimizer (which is going away). I can tell you I have several Louisville friends at UPS who are happy. I also know a few commuters who left UPS for another airline.

To fully understand your progression, you need to look at the percentage of pilots recently hired, expected growth, and upcoming retirements.

Pilots Recently Hired:

See attached spreadsheet snap shots. The percentage of pilots on the seniority list hired since 2012 is 44% at UPS and 48.5% at Delta. So yes, a greater percentage have been hired at Delta than at UPS. This doesn’t tell the whole picture though. Slight win for UPS.

Growth:

Delta is expanding. UPS is expanding too. Who is expanding faster? My guess is Delta. Latest rumor at Delta is that they want to raise the pilot population number by 3,800. That’s in addition to hiring to compensate for retirements. That’s a 30% increase in seniority list size .At UPS, they are more closed lipped so it’s hard to say. I think there’s 4 x 747, 3 x 767, and 1 x MD11 on order (someone confirm?). Based off typical crew manning for those 8 aircraft, I’d estimate they need to increase the UPS pilot population number by about 155. Given that they are reportedly under-staffed currently, I'll add another 100 pilots to that for a total of 255. That’s a 8% increase in seniority list. If anyone has additional info on aircraft orders or expansion rumors, please advise. Maybe my UPS growth expectation is pessimistic. Win for Delta

Upcoming Retirements:

See attached spreadsheet snap shots. Delta and UPS both have a massive number of retirements coming. Between now and 2031, 35% of current Delta and UPS pilots will have retired. That’s mandatory retirements and typically UPS pilots retire earlier than 65 so the actual percentage will probably be greater for UPS. After 2031, retirement percentages remain strong for both but UPS pulls away at an increasing rate. By 2040, its 71% and 66% for UPS and Delta, respectively. By 2047, it’s 89% and 67%. Win for UPS.

Summary:

Overall, the future is bright at both UPS and Delta. I think UPS does win the seniority progression, like you said, but Delta isn’t too far behind.

I can't speak to this from a personal standpoint but others here have already added good input. I had the same questions and the links that FTv3 listed helped.

True

See attached spreadsheet snapshot to see the inputs I used. I wouldn’t call it a wash for you. I got it about $2.3 million in favor of UPS for a 25 year career. That’s including gross pay, 401K, and pension. It was a wash for me, but that’s with a 6 year head start at Delta. Things maybe to factor in:

In favor of UPS:

-13 bid periods (UPS) at 75 hours vs 12 (Delta) at 74 hours

- leave sell back at UPS of 71.5 hours/year once you max out your bank which probably takes about 3 years to do if you stay healthy. That's almost a 14th bid period.

-wide-body pay for your entire career at UPS vs maybe 30% of your career at Delta,

-Pension: I try not to rely on it after talking to some many Delta pilots that have been burned. Consider it icing on the cake if it’s still there when you retire… really, amazingly delicious icing. I figure if I work for 25 years, retire at 65, and die at 80, the pension will be worth $1.67 million. That’s pretty awesome.

-Junior Assignments awarded without a trigger. At Delta, you must reach ALV minus 5 hours or 72 hours, whichever is less, before green slips are worth premium pay. Prior to this point, a green slip is only worth straight pay.

-Conflict Bidding vs PBS (Preferential Bidding System): I don’t know much about conflict bidding but I know the IPA is hanging onto it with an iron grip so it must be good. I believe it allows you much more scheduling flexibility which leads to more money-making opportunities.

In favor of Delta:

-16% B plan contribution for Delta plus “cash over cap”. 12% at UPS and no “cash over cap”. If you are unfamiliar with “cash over cap”, what that means is when you reach either your 401K contribution limit ($58,000 if less than 50, or $64,500 if 50 or over) or your 401K income limit of $290,000, whichever comes first, you and your employer can no longer contribute to your 401K for that year. When either limit is reached, UPS stop contributing. At Delta when the limit is reached, you are paid the 16% as additional taxable income (ie cash over cap).

-Green slips pay 200% versus Junior Assignments pay 150%

Unfortunately I can't attach excel files here. For anyone curious about comparing numbers between UPS and Delta, PM and I can email you the spreadsheet I used. You can plug in your birthdate and compare numbers for yourself.

C2078

Two things to consider:

1) Our pension is near 90% funded, and tied to the senior management plan. Of course nothing is certain (except death and taxes), but I would definitely not consider it icing on the cake, more like the cake itself. The IPA considers our blended defined benefit/contribution industry leading.

2) Health insurance premiums: Delta charges exorbitant amount for decent coverage. We pay about half with top notch coverage.

YellowBird

Your in a win win situation. If Louisville is home, go to UPS. The longer you think, the harder the decision gets. It's not a perfect place, but neither is Delta.

Airbum

My normal suggestion, Take a week and jumpseat on us for a week.
IMO the ONLY way to understand how our flying will affect you and your family life is to do it.

Mediocre Pilot

FTv3: Thanks for the response, as well as the detailed input on all the other threads. I've read them all! At the end of the day, I'm in a good position (like OP). Luckily, I don't have to make the decision today, but it's coming quick. I'm going to try to catch a jumpseat or, at a minimum, spend a few days with my wife in Louisville and Atlanta to see which we want to live in. At the end of the day, location will likely be the deciding factor.

Whoever said "the longer you think, the harder the decision gets..." 100%.

FTv3

My cliff notes version:

Louisville = small college town city in major distribution/ logistics center. Southern feel with church cliques dominating the social structures in the nicer (E) parts of town.

ATL = Fortune 500 corporate HQ Mecca. Medium
city with massive population sprawl. Diversified population.

Neither has quality public schools but ATL has more “good districts” and more (a lot more) private options. Tax rates are comparable.

Obviously, much more to do in ATL, driving distance to a lot of different places (beaches, mountains). 1 flight away from most of the world.