Leaving Delta for UPS?- 2021
09-05-2021, 07:24 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 767 captain
Posts: 2,695
Originally Posted by FTv3
Conflict bidding loses its luster in domiciles where they can easily backfill with stuffer trips. It’s only really good in ANC.
09-05-2021, 07:34 AM
#22
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,501
Any discussion of UPS furloughing in the context of newhires deserves nuance.
Has it happened before? Yes, once, under a confluence of 1. age 65 change, 2. mass retirement of three-crew airframes, and 3. great recession. The common thread? Stagnation.
Could it happen again, in the future? Yes. Like at any airline, the risk at UPS is not zero…but we should all acknowledge its REALLY low.
For anybody recently hired or soon to be hired, do not let this talk of a very real decade-old event predispose you to think an F-bomb is close at hand. We’re short-staffed, still getting growth airframes, retiring pilots well ahead of mandatory figures with a massive looming wave and experiencing continued volume growth.
JMHO, caveat emptor, past results not indicative of future performance, YMMV, etc. etc.
Has it happened before? Yes, once, under a confluence of 1. age 65 change, 2. mass retirement of three-crew airframes, and 3. great recession. The common thread? Stagnation.
Could it happen again, in the future? Yes. Like at any airline, the risk at UPS is not zero…but we should all acknowledge its REALLY low.
For anybody recently hired or soon to be hired, do not let this talk of a very real decade-old event predispose you to think an F-bomb is close at hand. We’re short-staffed, still getting growth airframes, retiring pilots well ahead of mandatory figures with a massive looming wave and experiencing continued volume growth.
JMHO, caveat emptor, past results not indicative of future performance, YMMV, etc. etc.
09-05-2021, 07:41 AM
#23
Occasional box hauler
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by McBoeingBus
If you have friends at UPS, have them give you a schedule and look at the type of flying they can hold. Compare to what you can hold at Delta. You were hired at at the beginning of the wave at Delta, but who knows what will happen at UPS. I seriously doubt you would see the kinda of deal at UPS Delta offered when COVID started. UPS has and will furlough. Atlanta has a lot of flights and you could drive. Unless you absolutely hate the commute and the passenger side, I'd stay at Delta.
09-05-2021, 06:32 PM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,076
OP. I was hired at DL about the same time as you, and same age.
I’m local to ATL now, but i commuted at the start.
I would say it all comes down to the commute. If you are one of the guys who executes his commute with style and grace…aka it doesn’t bug you at all. I would say stay at DL. But some/most guys hate/dislike commuting.
it is a tough choice. There are many days where I daydream about not dealing with unruly Pax or FA. Also, you will block a lot less hours probably.
Either way. Good luck. And let us know what you do when it’s official
I’m local to ATL now, but i commuted at the start.
I would say it all comes down to the commute. If you are one of the guys who executes his commute with style and grace…aka it doesn’t bug you at all. I would say stay at DL. But some/most guys hate/dislike commuting.
it is a tough choice. There are many days where I daydream about not dealing with unruly Pax or FA. Also, you will block a lot less hours probably.
Either way. Good luck. And let us know what you do when it’s official
09-06-2021, 03:07 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,256
Delta disability is free and fully funded by the company to pay you 50% of your FAE until mandatory retirement age. The DPMA you mention is private insurance to bring you up to a tax equivalent of full pay for two years max.
09-06-2021, 05:44 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,256
I should have added that in addition Delta fully funds your retirement account by paying 32% of your disability amount directly into the DC plan. When you reach the 415c limit they pay that as cash for the remainder of the year.
09-06-2021, 06:57 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: L188
Posts: 978
Don’t do it
MTSU, listen to FTv3, he’s spot on! I would in no way give up six years at Delta to start over anywhere. You might not realise how lucky you are to even have the opportunites you have. Night cargo to places like Hong Kong aern’t something to look forward to. Six pilots were recently detained in Hong Kong and sent to a Hong Kong hospital for 21 days because of the Covid nonsense. I think one of those would convince you you made a bad decision. Also, be aware you will highly likely be commuting to ANC for a while. You might get SDF and eventually will but, your lifestyle and type of job, will change significantly.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
09-06-2021, 07:29 AM
#28
Swimmer
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: A300 FO, C-130 Pilot
Posts: 100
A lot of great info on here. Thanks everyone for your input.
In regards to upgrade times, the numbers I have are telling me that it will take unit 2034 for someone hired today to get to 50% on the seniority list. This is based off of mandatory retirements only. There's been a couple comments on here as well as several of my UPS buddies that think that someone hired today could upgrade on a junior fleet (A300 or ONT) in anywhere from 4-8 years. That's a big difference from 13 years. The three things I see that support ~13 years are:
-44% of the seniority list having been hired sine 2012. Most my buddies that are telling me 4-8 years were hired anywhere from 1-5 years ago with most of them hired in 2017. At the point they were hired, only 15% of the seniority list was new hirers. They were at the beginning of the wave and I could see very quick upgrades for them.
-Mandatory Retirement Numbers: I attached a screen shot of the mandatory retirements that shows 50% of the seniority list will retire by 2034. It's not really possible to account for guys retiring early, but I know that COVID has convinced a lot of guys to retire early. Who knows if that trend will continue.
-Fleet Growth: Significant fleet growth or a larger seniority list with the current fleet would justify earlier upgrade times. Maybe this is the aspect I'm missing. It's my understanding UPS has 8 aircraft on order? Are these just to replace the MD? The "better not bigger" strategy seems to make me think UPS will prefer to continue offering 150% on open time pick up to avoid fleet growth.
Can someone comment on what's the rationale supporting 4-8 years?
On a separate note, a big benefit I hear about UPS is that the block time to total pay ratio is a lot lower. At Delta, assuming no premium pay, my block to pay ratio is about 80%. Most of my UPS buddies are in the 60's with a wide range anywhere from 55-80% depending on their fleet. The block time at Delta might be higher but I can say I truly enjoyed going to work here (pre-covid). My ideal trip is a 3 or 4 day with a 20-30 hour Caribbean layover. In 2019, I was getting a couple of those a month. I've read on here quite a bit about the different types of trips. Specifically on the A300 (top of my dream sheet), I've heard that it goes south of the border and the slower cruise speed tends to drive more layovers. Are there comparable layover options? Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips a lot of my UPS buddies prefer to do.
In regards to upgrade times, the numbers I have are telling me that it will take unit 2034 for someone hired today to get to 50% on the seniority list. This is based off of mandatory retirements only. There's been a couple comments on here as well as several of my UPS buddies that think that someone hired today could upgrade on a junior fleet (A300 or ONT) in anywhere from 4-8 years. That's a big difference from 13 years. The three things I see that support ~13 years are:
-44% of the seniority list having been hired sine 2012. Most my buddies that are telling me 4-8 years were hired anywhere from 1-5 years ago with most of them hired in 2017. At the point they were hired, only 15% of the seniority list was new hirers. They were at the beginning of the wave and I could see very quick upgrades for them.
-Mandatory Retirement Numbers: I attached a screen shot of the mandatory retirements that shows 50% of the seniority list will retire by 2034. It's not really possible to account for guys retiring early, but I know that COVID has convinced a lot of guys to retire early. Who knows if that trend will continue.
-Fleet Growth: Significant fleet growth or a larger seniority list with the current fleet would justify earlier upgrade times. Maybe this is the aspect I'm missing. It's my understanding UPS has 8 aircraft on order? Are these just to replace the MD? The "better not bigger" strategy seems to make me think UPS will prefer to continue offering 150% on open time pick up to avoid fleet growth.
Can someone comment on what's the rationale supporting 4-8 years?
On a separate note, a big benefit I hear about UPS is that the block time to total pay ratio is a lot lower. At Delta, assuming no premium pay, my block to pay ratio is about 80%. Most of my UPS buddies are in the 60's with a wide range anywhere from 55-80% depending on their fleet. The block time at Delta might be higher but I can say I truly enjoyed going to work here (pre-covid). My ideal trip is a 3 or 4 day with a 20-30 hour Caribbean layover. In 2019, I was getting a couple of those a month. I've read on here quite a bit about the different types of trips. Specifically on the A300 (top of my dream sheet), I've heard that it goes south of the border and the slower cruise speed tends to drive more layovers. Are there comparable layover options? Having a 3 or 4 day trip with a nice layover seems more appealing to me personally than the 4 am-noon day trips a lot of my UPS buddies prefer to do.
09-06-2021, 07:34 AM
#29
Swimmer
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: A300 FO, C-130 Pilot
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by Braniff DC8
MTSU, listen to FTv3, he’s spot on! I would in no way give up six years at Delta to start over anywhere. You might not realise how lucky you are to even have the opportunites you have. Night cargo to places like Hong Kong aern’t something to look forward to. Six pilots were recently detained in Hong Kong and sent to a Hong Kong hospital for 21 days because of the Covid nonsense. I think one of those would convince you you made a bad decision. Also, be aware you will highly likely be commuting to ANC for a while. You might get SDF and eventually will but, your lifestyle and type of job, will change significantly.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
-A300
-75/76 SDF domestic
-75/76Z
-MIA
ONT
in that order. I've got a couple buddies on the 74 and are dealing with the issues you mentioned Definitely a rough time right now for those guys. But being I'll most likely be domestic, do you still thinking making the switch would be a big mistake?
09-06-2021, 07:34 AM
#30
Occasional box hauler
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,673
Originally Posted by Braniff DC8
MTSU, listen to FTv3, he’s spot on! I would in no way give up six years at Delta to start over anywhere. You might not realise how lucky you are to even have the opportunites you have. Night cargo to places like Hong Kong aern’t something to look forward to. Six pilots were recently detained in Hong Kong and sent to a Hong Kong hospital for 21 days because of the Covid nonsense. I think one of those would convince you you made a bad decision. Also, be aware you will highly likely be commuting to ANC for a while. You might get SDF and eventually will but, your lifestyle and type of job, will change significantly.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
MTSU, you don’t know me from a hole in the wall but please listen to me, DON’T DO IT! No way in hell you should leave Delta for UPS.
Trust me my friend Culture is a lot more important than you think.
. We do operate at all hours of the day in and out of Hong Kong, but anyone doing international long haul pax does too. It was five pilots detained, all were released long before that (thanks IPA), and we now have an LOA ending Hong Kong layovers until their policy changes. You clearly read poorly because he already stated he’s in a light twin class. So no Anchorage commute.The only part of your post that was useful concerned culture. It does matter, especially if you are interested in working in the training center or have delusions of being chief pilot. Otherwise, it’s only a nuisance when the JA calls won’t stop (just received my third today). At the end of the day it’s a means to put money against your family’s wants and needs. UPS will likely provide more of that.
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