rickair7777

VX had 321's too at the end.

9mikemike

And VX had hubs in SFO, LAX and a hub in New York covering JFK, EWR and LGA with pilot, fa and mechs in all 3....
Clearly not a regional unlike the airline that bought them who essentially was contained within one region...

Margaritaville

1. Management isn't going to agree to it. They like the whipsaw and flexibility. They hold the keys to a merger.
The airline industry is only one crash away from this paradigm shift. Once the public realizes that management is hiring highly inexperienced pilots to fly the public to save money, there's no number of airline name changes that will save them.
Comair 3272, 1997
Air Midwest 5481, 2003
Pinnacle 3701, 2004
Comair 5191, 2006
Colgan 3407, 2009
None of these crashes "shifted the paradigm". (Nice try to use a big word to sound smart). Colgan 3407 brought us the 1500 hour and an ATP rule, greatly increasing experience at the regionals, negating your experience argument.

2. The mainline group isn't going to take concessions to get you on board. Nor should they.
Isn't the whole point that Horizon is flying Alaska's route? Also I have no interest in going to Alaska--especially where I'm at now.
The point is that Alaska mainline pilots could take the flying back without the Horizon pilots is they wanted to take concessions. What are the Horizon (or any other regional) pilots bringing to the table. None of the regionals "own" their flying, and that's a significant distinction. As to your second point, good for you?

3. ALPA will fight you on it. Reference the showdown at the 2000 ALPA BOD meeting. (Were you even born yet?)
It's now 2021 and we're now starting to see the fruits of these "regional airlines". I think in retrospect B-scale wages would have been smarter, but I could be wrong.
You're wrong. Since you have no idea what I'm talking about, let me give you a little history lesson. In 2000, at the ALPA Board of Directors meeting, a rep from ASA brought a motion to the floor to establish a PID (Policy Implementation Date) which would trigger a single carrier petition, and a 3 way merger of Delta, Comair, and ASA. The Delta Pilots vehemently opposed this, and the Group A pilots hijacked it through floor amendments, then referred it to a committee and killed it. It was never brought up again. The RJDC lawsuit against ALPA, which drug on for years, was the response from the Comair and ASA pilots. That was eventually settled for pennies on the dollar, in exchange for "a seat at the table" in future scope negotiations. As for the B-scale, pilots who have been doing this a lot longer than both of us fought hard to eliminate it, and it would be incredibly selfish and foolish to bring it back now. You would get zero support on that, outside of the regional pilots who would be getting a windfall. The bad precedent would ripple across the industry as mainline management demands B-Scales. Allegiant tried it in 2020 to keep the furloughees on property. We told them to pound sand. It was the right thing to do.

4. It's a windfall for the regional, with little in return for the mainline. Difficult to negotiate a deal there.
There's actually a huge return for the "mainline" pilots.
Actually, there isn't. Alaska Air own the flying. You own nothing. You're a subcontractor. If the mainline pilots wanted to give concessions for scope, to lock down that flying, it would have nothing to do with Horizon. (It would take massive concessions though). It was incredibly short sighted of past MECs not to secure scope in that legacy contract. What is Horizon going to bring to that table to contribute? You own nothing.

5. The senior pilots at the regional won't accept a staple. The junior pilots at the mainline won't accept an SLI.
Virgin was technically a regional airline and they got an SLI? If junior pilots could flow back to the "regional" instead of being furloughed they'd accept it.
Virgin was technically a regional airline? Now you've lost all credibility. Virgin was definitely a mainline carrier. They flew their own code. Do you even understand what that means? They got an SLI because they were on the same level as AS, and a "merger of equals", despite the actual size difference. As for flowbacks, go paruse the AA forums. Flowbacks are popular when times are bad, they die out when times are good. It was also tried in the early 2000s. They were terrible employees when they flowed back, and management hated the program. It increased costs at the regional, and made for major training events. All it did was **** everyone off. Never happen again.

Varsity

Horizon is no more of an AAG contractor than Alaska air is. QX could be awarded 737's tomorrow and there is nothing Alaska pilots could do about it.

In your words "you own nothing" either.

Mesa already flies 737's. It's probably only a matter of time before the entire domestic air carrier system is contracted out. There is nothing Alaska pilots do that regional pilots can't.

9mikemike

There is no AAG certificate. Alaska Air Group or Air Group is a medium. Alaska Airlines inc. is the 121 certificate holder that flies 321/737. Alaska Airlines inc. is authorized to operate as an airline including selling seats. Alaska Airlines inc has contracted with Horizon Air industries and Skywest Airlines inc for lift. Neither regional airline is set up for or authorized any longer to hold out to the public air transportation. In the past, both airlines actually operated commuter air carriers that code shared with other airlines. No more. So none of the contracted lift, which is all Horizon and Skywest are, bring any equity to a merger. Horizon still has a number of pilots and flight attendants who worked for the old Horizon when it still sold tickets and had reservations etc...They did not make the transition mentally to the new Fee For Departure airline they now work for. I feel for them. They had a great little airline. Horizon made them pretend to be Alaska. All the We are Alaska BS. Took away their identity. The flight attendants have to wear the identical uniform as Alaska and pretend to be Alaska but Horizon pays half as much and puts them in sh”””ty hotels and works the life out of them. All around Sh””ty deal for everyone at Horizon.

Varsity

I know how regionals work.

Horizon is a certificated 121 flag carrier. There is no 'holding out.' They are authorized to sell tickets just like everyone else, AAG does it for them. AAG owns the reservations systems, ticket sales, Magee, Horizon, everything. Alaska Air Inc, the airline is also a subsidiary of AAG.

If AAG decides to flip the script one day and award flying 737's, airbuses, 747's, you name it at Horizon, there is nothing the Alaska pilots could legally do about it except whine on APC. This isn't the old days where mainline pilots had ATP's and type ratings while the regionals had commercial pilots certificates, there is no difference.

rickair7777

There's a grain of truth here. I think most folks at mainline realize this and are prioritizing scope... a few years behind the big three but better late than never.

Scope would obviously be good for AS ALPA, but it would also be good for management because they will basically get to "sell" scope insurance to the pilots. That will re-direct negotiating capital away from other areas... in exchange for something management probably wasn't going to do in the first place.

Kind of like paying "protection money" to the mob. Guido doesn't really want to break your legs in the first place, but the fact that he could makes you pay up.

Ashes

A number of cycles back, both groups were in Section 6 at roughly the same time. Some form of this idea was floated, and while the AS ALPA leadership understood the long-term benefit, they were unequivocal in their belief that it would be impossible to sell the idea of spending negotiating capital on something beneficial to Horizon pilots in the short term to their membership. I don't recall what they decided to spend it on instead, only that Kasher took whatever it was and more away shortly thereafter. There's obviously no guarantee that the suits would have been willing to play ball at any price, but the fact that it never got past the "kicking a few ideas around" stage is emblematic of how pilots' focus on near horizons continues to make management's job much easier than it should be.

OTZeagle1

Ah, this is really embarrassing. So many smart people trying to re-invent the wheel 😂😂😂. Let’s make this really easy, there is a ZERO percent chance AS and QX merge, ZERO. There is a ZERO percent chance of QX getting 195s. We are getting MAX 7s, they will pay the same as a MAX 9s. All you chicken littles keep running around terrified, 747 to QX, 787 to QX... in five years you will have a new conspiracy I am sure. You can all sit around your campfires and tell ghost stories.

airb320

This is the first time that I 100% agree with you, the craziest things are possible in this crazy World of ours...