Alaska buying Hawaiian airlines.
03-29-2024, 08:47 AM
#621
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by PineappleXpres
All valid, but consider:
We had/have a defend mentality.
We had great interisland margins until we didn’t.
We only introduce new flying where we only attempt monopolistic type routes. Like, “Gee I wonder why nobody else is or why everyone else stopped route x.” On that note, we don’t want to fly into fortress hubs of other carriers and step on any one else’s toes. Meanwhile everyone is gunning to fly to Hawaii.
We cling to what worked, like Japan. Flying empty planes hemorrhaging money.
We carry “extra” staff for long haul flying and the training bubbles and inefficiencies of a diverse fleet and route structure. There are advantage to that complexity like negotiating power or like when a fleet is parked due to operational or manufacturing woes, the other picks up the slack.
We are trying really hard to offer a premium leisure product while still offering basic economy to satisfy everyone and somehow “feel” different.
We have a very low attrition rate due to our varied, east flying and high qol.
Sucks we can’t make money and I’m as worried as anybody Hono gets shrunk or Amazon pulls the plug or whipsaws.
BUT, I also don’t want my checks to bounce.
There is a reason, beyond the SWAPA/staple thing, that HAL pilots prefer Alaska over Southwest. We must see something in you that says “hang on, this merger could work with an all 737 type operator.”
You are right, margins will erode. I’d be more nervous than ever with a MAX only growth plan for the next 20 years. Change can be a good thing. Some parts of it anyways.
We had/have a defend mentality.
We had great interisland margins until we didn’t.
We only introduce new flying where we only attempt monopolistic type routes. Like, “Gee I wonder why nobody else is or why everyone else stopped route x.” On that note, we don’t want to fly into fortress hubs of other carriers and step on any one else’s toes. Meanwhile everyone is gunning to fly to Hawaii.
We cling to what worked, like Japan. Flying empty planes hemorrhaging money.
We carry “extra” staff for long haul flying and the training bubbles and inefficiencies of a diverse fleet and route structure. There are advantage to that complexity like negotiating power or like when a fleet is parked due to operational or manufacturing woes, the other picks up the slack.
We are trying really hard to offer a premium leisure product while still offering basic economy to satisfy everyone and somehow “feel” different.
We have a very low attrition rate due to our varied, east flying and high qol.
Sucks we can’t make money and I’m as worried as anybody Hono gets shrunk or Amazon pulls the plug or whipsaws.
BUT, I also don’t want my checks to bounce.
There is a reason, beyond the SWAPA/staple thing, that HAL pilots prefer Alaska over Southwest. We must see something in you that says “hang on, this merger could work with an all 737 type operator.”
You are right, margins will erode. I’d be more nervous than ever with a MAX only growth plan for the next 20 years. Change can be a good thing. Some parts of it anyways.
Hawaiian management walked past $1 hoping $1.25 was around the corner, only to find nothing, time and time again.
The truth is, Hawaiian has just been horribly mismanaged over the last few years. Just one stroll through koapaka or a day of CQ and you can see the inefficiencies. While I enjoy the money, the amount of wasteful spending on premium pay, travel, training inefficiencies etc is ridiculous. Just talk to an instructor and look at their W2…they’re working for it, but the training department alone has to be responsible for tens of thousands in losses per day.
it’s just been one bad decision after another. Unproven GTF Engines, whipsawing line service and having newbie rampers nearly total airframes, doubling down on Japan instead of growing new markets, the list goes on…
It seems like HA management is just starting to realize the mistakes they’ve made and take corrective action, they’re reactive instead of proactive.
Alaska sees the potential and with their management they can right this ship, sure some of the laid back woke culture will be lost, but right now it seems like that takes precedent before profits.
I think Hawaiian is the plug and play option for Alaska to become a true international carrier, and probably cheaper too. We have the 787/330 program, NAT Tracks, and can run an international airline. Pre-COVID and before southwests entry into the market (as they’re currently cutting more than 50% of their hawaii flying) HA was a cash cow. With this deal Alaska is basically buying us for our $900M. 1.9B for an airline with $1B cash and $900M debt…cheaper than the cost of 3 787-9. They say within the first two years they can realize over $250M in synergies…we’re a steal.
Alaska was an acquisition target, Hawaiian was an acquisition target, southwest is on the hunt and willing to play dirty. I think this marriage is the best case scenario with those airlines in the dating pool and the current views of the DOJ. This will allow the two to become a true legacy carrier and compete with the big guys while still offering a more unique experience catered to the granola eaters and surfer bruhs.
While I know I may take a hit in the short term, in the long term I am looking forward to the security and the potential this new airline has and at this point that’s all I can do. This has the potential to be really great, Hawaiians management can’t get us there…but Alaskas can.
03-29-2024, 09:01 AM
#622
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 867
Originally Posted by blackbox348
HA Guy Here 👋🏻
Hawaiian management walked past $1 hoping $1.25 was around the corner, only to find nothing, time and time again.
The truth is, Hawaiian has just been horribly mismanaged over the last few years. Just one stroll through koapaka or a day of CQ and you can see the inefficiencies. While I enjoy the money, the amount of wasteful spending on premium pay, travel, training inefficiencies etc is ridiculous. Just talk to an instructor and look at their W2…they’re working for it, but the training department alone has to be responsible for tens of thousands in losses per day.
it’s just been one bad decision after another. Unproven GTF Engines, whipsawing line service and having newbie rampers nearly total airframes, doubling down on Japan instead of growing new markets, the list goes on…
It seems like HA management is just starting to realize the mistakes they’ve made and take corrective action, they’re reactive instead of proactive.
Alaska sees the potential and with their management they can right this ship, sure some of the laid back woke culture will be lost, but right now it seems like that takes precedent before profits.
I think Hawaiian is the plug and play option for Alaska to become a true international carrier, and probably cheaper too. We have the 787/330 program, NAT Tracks, and can run an international airline. Pre-COVID and before southwests entry into the market (as they’re currently cutting more than 50% of their hawaii flying) HA was a cash cow. With this deal Alaska is basically buying us for our $900M. 1.9B for an airline with $1B cash and $900M debt…cheaper than the cost of 3 787-9. They say within the first two years they can realize over $250M in synergies…we’re a steal.
Alaska was an acquisition target, Hawaiian was an acquisition target, southwest is on the hunt and willing to play dirty. I think this marriage is the best case scenario with those airlines in the dating pool and the current views of the DOJ. This will allow the two to become a true legacy carrier and compete with the big guys while still offering a more unique experience catered to the granola eaters and surfer bruhs.
While I know I may take a hit in the short term, in the long term I am looking forward to the security and the potential this new airline has and at this point that’s all I can do. This has the potential to be really great, Hawaiians management can’t get us there…but Alaskas can.
Hawaiian management walked past $1 hoping $1.25 was around the corner, only to find nothing, time and time again.
The truth is, Hawaiian has just been horribly mismanaged over the last few years. Just one stroll through koapaka or a day of CQ and you can see the inefficiencies. While I enjoy the money, the amount of wasteful spending on premium pay, travel, training inefficiencies etc is ridiculous. Just talk to an instructor and look at their W2…they’re working for it, but the training department alone has to be responsible for tens of thousands in losses per day.
it’s just been one bad decision after another. Unproven GTF Engines, whipsawing line service and having newbie rampers nearly total airframes, doubling down on Japan instead of growing new markets, the list goes on…
It seems like HA management is just starting to realize the mistakes they’ve made and take corrective action, they’re reactive instead of proactive.
Alaska sees the potential and with their management they can right this ship, sure some of the laid back woke culture will be lost, but right now it seems like that takes precedent before profits.
I think Hawaiian is the plug and play option for Alaska to become a true international carrier, and probably cheaper too. We have the 787/330 program, NAT Tracks, and can run an international airline. Pre-COVID and before southwests entry into the market (as they’re currently cutting more than 50% of their hawaii flying) HA was a cash cow. With this deal Alaska is basically buying us for our $900M. 1.9B for an airline with $1B cash and $900M debt…cheaper than the cost of 3 787-9. They say within the first two years they can realize over $250M in synergies…we’re a steal.
Alaska was an acquisition target, Hawaiian was an acquisition target, southwest is on the hunt and willing to play dirty. I think this marriage is the best case scenario with those airlines in the dating pool and the current views of the DOJ. This will allow the two to become a true legacy carrier and compete with the big guys while still offering a more unique experience catered to the granola eaters and surfer bruhs.
While I know I may take a hit in the short term, in the long term I am looking forward to the security and the potential this new airline has and at this point that’s all I can do. This has the potential to be really great, Hawaiians management can’t get us there…but Alaskas can.
filet-o-fish
03-29-2024, 09:36 AM
#623
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2022
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by flysnoopy76
Totally agree with you, I can’t figure out why it seems a large number of Alaska pilots I fly with are excited about this. 787s maybe, well wouldn’t it be better if Alaska took their 1.9 billion and bought their own. Maybe not the case from a company/investor point of view, but it sure would be better for pilots who are here now or hope to come here in the future.
03-29-2024, 01:04 PM
#624
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by flysnoopy76
Totally agree with you, I can’t figure out why it seems a large number of Alaska pilots I fly with are excited about this. 787s maybe, well wouldn’t it be better if Alaska took their 1.9 billion and bought their own. Maybe not the case from a company/investor point of view, but it sure would be better for pilots who are here now or hope to come here in the future.
03-29-2024, 02:17 PM
#625
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: outside
Posts: 673
Originally Posted by blackbox348
HA Guy Here 👋🏻
Hawaiian management walked past $1 hoping $1.25 was around the corner, only to find nothing, time and time again.
The truth is, Hawaiian has just been horribly mismanaged over the last few years. Just one stroll through koapaka or a day of CQ and you can see the inefficiencies. While I enjoy the money, the amount of wasteful spending on premium pay, travel, training inefficiencies etc is ridiculous. Just talk to an instructor and look at their W2…they’re working for it, but the training department alone has to be responsible for tens of thousands in losses per day.
it’s just been one bad decision after another. Unproven GTF Engines, whipsawing line service and having newbie rampers nearly total airframes, doubling down on Japan instead of growing new markets, the list goes on…
It seems like HA management is just starting to realize the mistakes they’ve made and take corrective action, they’re reactive instead of proactive.
Alaska sees the potential and with their management they can right this ship, sure some of the laid back woke culture will be lost, but right now it seems like that takes precedent before profits.
I think Hawaiian is the plug and play option for Alaska to become a true international carrier, and probably cheaper too. We have the 787/330 program, NAT Tracks, and can run an international airline. Pre-COVID and before southwests entry into the market (as they’re currently cutting more than 50% of their hawaii flying) HA was a cash cow. With this deal Alaska is basically buying us for our $900M. 1.9B for an airline with $1B cash and $900M debt…cheaper than the cost of 3 787-9. They say within the first two years they can realize over $250M in synergies…we’re a steal.
Alaska was an acquisition target, Hawaiian was an acquisition target, southwest is on the hunt and willing to play dirty. I think this marriage is the best case scenario with those airlines in the dating pool and the current views of the DOJ. This will allow the two to become a true legacy carrier and compete with the big guys while still offering a more unique experience catered to the granola eaters and surfer bruhs.
While I know I may take a hit in the short term, in the long term I am looking forward to the security and the potential this new airline has and at this point that’s all I can do. This has the potential to be really great, Hawaiians management can’t get us there…but Alaskas can.
Hawaiian management walked past $1 hoping $1.25 was around the corner, only to find nothing, time and time again.
The truth is, Hawaiian has just been horribly mismanaged over the last few years. Just one stroll through koapaka or a day of CQ and you can see the inefficiencies. While I enjoy the money, the amount of wasteful spending on premium pay, travel, training inefficiencies etc is ridiculous. Just talk to an instructor and look at their W2…they’re working for it, but the training department alone has to be responsible for tens of thousands in losses per day.
it’s just been one bad decision after another. Unproven GTF Engines, whipsawing line service and having newbie rampers nearly total airframes, doubling down on Japan instead of growing new markets, the list goes on…
It seems like HA management is just starting to realize the mistakes they’ve made and take corrective action, they’re reactive instead of proactive.
Alaska sees the potential and with their management they can right this ship, sure some of the laid back woke culture will be lost, but right now it seems like that takes precedent before profits.
I think Hawaiian is the plug and play option for Alaska to become a true international carrier, and probably cheaper too. We have the 787/330 program, NAT Tracks, and can run an international airline. Pre-COVID and before southwests entry into the market (as they’re currently cutting more than 50% of their hawaii flying) HA was a cash cow. With this deal Alaska is basically buying us for our $900M. 1.9B for an airline with $1B cash and $900M debt…cheaper than the cost of 3 787-9. They say within the first two years they can realize over $250M in synergies…we’re a steal.
Alaska was an acquisition target, Hawaiian was an acquisition target, southwest is on the hunt and willing to play dirty. I think this marriage is the best case scenario with those airlines in the dating pool and the current views of the DOJ. This will allow the two to become a true legacy carrier and compete with the big guys while still offering a more unique experience catered to the granola eaters and surfer bruhs.
While I know I may take a hit in the short term, in the long term I am looking forward to the security and the potential this new airline has and at this point that’s all I can do. This has the potential to be really great, Hawaiians management can’t get us there…but Alaskas can.
Some details to consider, not that I am in the know, just an observer, but a question is, are they're 787 options in our 787 orders?
The other thing to some of the earlier posters, the point the blackbox mentioned, destinations.
AS is buying the 787 orders and routes/gates slots, SYD, NRT, HND and KIX.
This does seem like a good deal for the price. AA bought TWA for like $900,000,000, what did they buy, 757/767s and all the int'l gates like London, Tel Aviv, Delhi, etc. not STL that's for sure.
03-29-2024, 03:21 PM
#626
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2015
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by Neosporin
Great post!
Some details to consider, not that I am in the know, just an observer, but a question is, are they're 787 options in our 787 orders?
The other thing to some of the earlier posters, the point the blackbox mentioned, destinations.
AS is buying the 787 orders and routes/gates slots, SYD, NRT, HND and KIX.
This does seem like a good deal for the price. AA bought TWA for like $900,000,000, what did they buy, 757/767s and all the int'l gates like London, Tel Aviv, Delhi, etc. not STL that's for sure.
Some details to consider, not that I am in the know, just an observer, but a question is, are they're 787 options in our 787 orders?
The other thing to some of the earlier posters, the point the blackbox mentioned, destinations.
AS is buying the 787 orders and routes/gates slots, SYD, NRT, HND and KIX.
This does seem like a good deal for the price. AA bought TWA for like $900,000,000, what did they buy, 757/767s and all the int'l gates like London, Tel Aviv, Delhi, etc. not STL that's for sure.
03-29-2024, 07:28 PM
#627
New Hire
Joined APC: Sep 2023
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 7
So the argument is AS is buying some 787s and gates in Japan and Australia and the associated routes. Routes that HA has been unable to make money on. But somehow our management team, with 0 experience with international widebody flying is going to turn those routes profitable, under the guidance of the HA leadership team that has not only not been able to make those routes profitable but by all accounts on this blog has run a once great company into the ground? IDK, this whole thing reeks of a decade long stagnation for the combined pilot group as AS gets rid of everything that doesn't meet its profit metrics and qualls another 1000 pilots on 737s. And now 1700 pilots instead of 700 that don't want to be here.
Again I hope I'm wrong, and I truly hope it works out for everyone. But I have yet to see a rational argument for this merger where the benefits outweigh the risks.
Again I hope I'm wrong, and I truly hope it works out for everyone. But I have yet to see a rational argument for this merger where the benefits outweigh the risks.
03-30-2024, 07:26 AM
#628
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2022
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by PineappleXpres
This
filet-o-fish
filet-o-fish
Weird, some of us have been saying this for quite a long time. "Welcome to the party pal". Better late than never.
AK is a lifeline for many of us who are too invested or later in years to want to change companies, go through indoc, and start over at the bottom. AK is obviously going to make some changes, aircraft basing changes, eliminate redundancies, shrink things in certain bases. When almost every airline was in the black and we were still firmly in the red, some of us saw the writing on the wall. Others believed the rhetoric from the C-suites.
I'd bet the only employees who can't see the forrest through the trees are those who just can't fathom (or hack) being a small fish in a big pond. Versus being the big fish in HI. Losing hundreds of millions a year, during what the current administration calls a unmitigated success for the economy, is not a good thing. HA is in trouble... What used to be a $60/share company (however overinflated that may have been) was and realistically is a $3.70 share company, which was our low in the not too distant past. Koapaka has made all the wrong moves, and then sprinkle in some State of HI missteps with pouring concrete. ( Probably should have hired some mainland folks to do that simple task). However Koapaka wants to twist it, they have been a disaster. The crews are basically putting the bandaids on this open wound.
I, for one, will be perfectly fine having a paystub from wherever the HQ is.
03-30-2024, 09:25 AM
#629
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,386
Originally Posted by blackbox348
I think Hawaiian is the plug and play option for Alaska to become a true international carrier, and probably cheaper too. We have the 787/330 program, NAT Tracks, and can run an international airline. Pre-COVID and before southwests entry into the market (as they’re currently cutting more than 50% of their hawaii flying) HA was a cash cow. With this deal Alaska is basically buying us for our $900M. 1.9B for an airline with $1B cash and $900M debt…cheaper than the cost of 3 787-9. They say within the first two years they can realize over $250M in synergies…we’re a steal.
03-30-2024, 09:32 AM
#630
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,386
Originally Posted by AKCattleCarrier
So the argument is AS is buying some 787s and gates in Japan and Australia and the associated routes. Routes that HA has been unable to make money on. But somehow our management team, with 0 experience with international widebody flying is going to turn those routes profitable, under the guidance of the HA leadership team that has not only not been able to make those routes profitable but by all accounts on this blog has run a once great company into the ground? IDK, this whole thing reeks of a decade long stagnation for the combined pilot group as AS gets rid of everything that doesn't meet its profit metrics and qualls another 1000 pilots on 737s. And now 1700 pilots instead of 700 that don't want to be here.
Again I hope I'm wrong, and I truly hope it works out for everyone. But I have yet to see a rational argument for this merger where the benefits outweigh the risks.
Again I hope I'm wrong, and I truly hope it works out for everyone. But I have yet to see a rational argument for this merger where the benefits outweigh the risks.
But I also think there's unquantified risk in doing nothing, and getting squeezed long-term by bigger operators. Especially since the Eskimo seems to be losing his traditional labor discount relative to the big majors.
Personally, it's not going to do anything for me other than expanded non-rev opportunities in retirement. That's good, Asia seems more interesting than PSC, YKM, YAK, etc. But it will probably be beneficial for younger folks. Probably.
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