Allegiant Air
06-27-2016, 11:38 AM
#3131
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: Yellow Bus
Posts: 355
Originally Posted by skyrider1015
So what's the numbers that are going around? 96 2nd yr FO and 237 15 yr Capt? That seems ok, it's some of the work rules that bother me. We should get premium pay for open time pick ups and 100% DH pay. That being said I'm totally not making my mind up until I go to a road show and ask the important questions.
06-27-2016, 02:34 PM
#3133
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 59
Let's think about this. Mr Smooth and a few others have mentioned that we should vote yes, just because its a contract. This completely defeats the purpose of negotiations. If we are willing to vote yes; with the hope of LOA's to correct things, we have voted in error. AAY management has a history of dragging their feet, and terrible schedules and work rules. We NEED a GOOD work rules contract.
In the event we vote NO, it doesn't end anything. We vote NO until the negotiation produces a proper contract. After reading the proposed TA, if you see a need to make LOA's before the scheduled amendment round; you should vote NO and let our negotiators know why.
The other remarks regarding us not being able to predict future work rules and pay is questionable as well. AAY has predicted it's future costs without doubt. Pilot's can demand a pay and work condition contract based on what we know now, and what we believe to be the direction the industry is going. As we all know, in the event of a downturn, we can guarantee airlines to expect concessions from the pilots. Therefore, we can expect a very good contract based on projections.
Pay should be acceptable for the next 5 year+ cycle. Work scheduled (i.e NO SINGLE DAYS OFF; vacations actually being available to use; being able to utilize PTO regardless of how many reserves are listed for that day; etc) should also be expected for the 5+ year cycle or my vote is NO.
If AAY offered a ridiculous low pay, but said don't worry, we'll get you an LOA for that next year, would you vote yes? We should take every section, and ignore the possibility of change. It's either good now,(and we aren't just talking about pay) and we vote yes; or it isn't good and we vote NO.
In the event we vote NO, it doesn't end anything. We vote NO until the negotiation produces a proper contract. After reading the proposed TA, if you see a need to make LOA's before the scheduled amendment round; you should vote NO and let our negotiators know why.
The other remarks regarding us not being able to predict future work rules and pay is questionable as well. AAY has predicted it's future costs without doubt. Pilot's can demand a pay and work condition contract based on what we know now, and what we believe to be the direction the industry is going. As we all know, in the event of a downturn, we can guarantee airlines to expect concessions from the pilots. Therefore, we can expect a very good contract based on projections.
Pay should be acceptable for the next 5 year+ cycle. Work scheduled (i.e NO SINGLE DAYS OFF; vacations actually being available to use; being able to utilize PTO regardless of how many reserves are listed for that day; etc) should also be expected for the 5+ year cycle or my vote is NO.
If AAY offered a ridiculous low pay, but said don't worry, we'll get you an LOA for that next year, would you vote yes? We should take every section, and ignore the possibility of change. It's either good now,(and we aren't just talking about pay) and we vote yes; or it isn't good and we vote NO.
06-27-2016, 02:44 PM
#3134
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Position: 80 to 320
Posts: 66
Originally Posted by GordoCooper
Let's think about this. Mr Smooth and a few others have mentioned that we should vote yes, just because its a contract. This completely defeats the purpose of negotiations. If we are willing to vote yes; with the hope of LOA's to correct things, we have voted in error. AAY management has a history of dragging their feet, and terrible schedules and work rules. We NEED a GOOD work rules contract.
In the event we vote NO, it doesn't end anything. We vote NO until the negotiation produces a proper contract. After reading the proposed TA, if you see a need to make LOA's before the scheduled amendment round; you should vote NO and let our negotiators know why.
The other remarks regarding us not being able to predict future work rules and pay is questionable as well. AAY has predicted it's future costs without doubt. Pilot's can demand a pay and work condition contract based on what we know now, and what we believe to be the direction the industry is going. As we all know, in the event of a downturn, we can guarantee airlines to expect concessions from the pilots. Therefore, we can expect a very good contract based on projections.
Pay should be acceptable for the next 5 year+ cycle. Work scheduled (i.e NO SINGLE DAYS OFF; vacations actually being available to use; being able to utilize PTO regardless of how many reserves are listed for that day; etc) should also be expected for the 5+ year cycle or my vote is NO.
If AAY offered a ridiculous low pay, but said don't worry, we'll get you an LOA for that next year, would you vote yes? We should take every section, and ignore the possibility of change. It's either good now,(and we aren't just talking about pay) and we vote yes; or it isn't good and we vote NO.
In the event we vote NO, it doesn't end anything. We vote NO until the negotiation produces a proper contract. After reading the proposed TA, if you see a need to make LOA's before the scheduled amendment round; you should vote NO and let our negotiators know why.
The other remarks regarding us not being able to predict future work rules and pay is questionable as well. AAY has predicted it's future costs without doubt. Pilot's can demand a pay and work condition contract based on what we know now, and what we believe to be the direction the industry is going. As we all know, in the event of a downturn, we can guarantee airlines to expect concessions from the pilots. Therefore, we can expect a very good contract based on projections.
Pay should be acceptable for the next 5 year+ cycle. Work scheduled (i.e NO SINGLE DAYS OFF; vacations actually being available to use; being able to utilize PTO regardless of how many reserves are listed for that day; etc) should also be expected for the 5+ year cycle or my vote is NO.
If AAY offered a ridiculous low pay, but said don't worry, we'll get you an LOA for that next year, would you vote yes? We should take every section, and ignore the possibility of change. It's either good now,(and we aren't just talking about pay) and we vote yes; or it isn't good and we vote NO.
Agree 100%
06-27-2016, 03:34 PM
#3135
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by smoothatFL410
....However, having said that, the TA vote will be, as always, a litmus test of how the NC and the EXCO did their job for the pilot group, which was what I was mentioning. They all approved it and sent it with recommendation to the pilots. Certainly not flaming anyone personally, but if the vote fails, that will be their fault, having missed what the pilots wanted and felt was important in a contract, simple as that.
How often have we seen a 'best and final offer' be superseded by a new B&FO when something changes. For example: if a TA were voted down, and the company wants to put a protracted negotiation time behind them. Think variously: UAL, AA and Southwest recently.
If the vote fails, it may have been that the TA was the best they could get from the Company right then, not that they failed their members' wishes and dreams.
Presenting a guaranteed-to-fail TA to members may also be a company way of dragging their heels, yet another negotiating tactic on their side.
A vote-down may cause the NC and EXCO folks to say (a.) Well, I failed my membership. (b.) Did the best we could at the time, sonsab$%^& just wouldn't play ball, (c.) I've had enough of this crap from members who don't appreciate my efforts, (d.) It's time for more quality time with my family, (e.) Maybe the next group of NC and EXCO folks will have better luck. Here are the keys to the Corvair.
Probably more than one, and perhaps all, of the above. Too complex to be considered 'simple.'
06-27-2016, 03:34 PM
#3136
Gets Tue/Wed and Sat Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 551
Originally Posted by fishforfun
Exactly. I don't want to vote on a contract that is only ok today. I want to vote on a contract that will still good 5+ years from now. JB is negotiating their first contract as we speak. They already have better work rules and are pushing our proposed pay rates. I feel I can say with 100% certainty that if we vote this in we will be passed by Spirit and JB in the next 6-12 months in almost all categories of work rules and pay. The NC and exco are out in the media hi fiving themselves. It might be a bit premature for celebrations.
06-27-2016, 03:52 PM
#3137
Lifer
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: MD80 CA
Posts: 176
Any other crews get the feeling that we are being punished for not extending (117 Duty) with total crap hotels. Bugs, dog crap, smoke filled rooms, blood on sheets, etc? My last two overnights are wish I could forget nights.
06-27-2016, 03:57 PM
#3138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 128
Originally Posted by INXS
Any other crews get the feeling that we are being punished for not extending (117 Duty) with total crap hotels. Bugs, dog crap, smoke filled rooms, blood on sheets, etc? My last two overnights are wish I could forget nights.
06-27-2016, 03:59 PM
#3139
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: MD CA
Posts: 97
Originally Posted by INXS
Any other crews get the feeling that we are being punished for not extending (117 Duty) with total crap hotels. Bugs, dog crap, smoke filled rooms, blood on sheets, etc? My last two overnights are wish I could forget nights.
06-27-2016, 04:59 PM
#3140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,940
Originally Posted by Italianaviator
You don't have to accept that. I've refused 3 or 4 hotels. Just by the name I knew they were unacceptable. Knights Inn, Days Inn, etc. just call crew travel. Be polite explain why you think they are unacceptable. They usually come back with one of two answers. 1. A list of awards and accreditations that specific hotel has received and it turns out not being as bad as I suspected or 2. They realize after doing some research how horrible it is and they change it. In my experiences scheduling never changes it but I always let them book it and immediately call crew travel.
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