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Old 10-15-2019, 12:20 AM   #21  
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These are the people protecting you and your family. Take a step back and think about that before you insult their character for “taking” a job from a non-mil pilot. For every Guard/Reserve pilot willing to forego the much better lifestyle of an airline pilot to continue to serve, the retention of their seniority and a military retirement are the least you can do to say thanks.


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Protecting from what?
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Old 10-15-2019, 05:13 AM   #22  
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Retired guard guy here. It is a racket to do indoc and then “poof” disappear for a couple of years to avoid first yr pay/build seniority. Not sure how you can even stop it but its a racket for sure. These guys arr not deploying overseas, they are hanging out at the unit. Once again, stupid conversation because how do you stop it?
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Old 10-15-2019, 06:14 AM   #23  
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Retired guard guy here. It is a racket to do indoc and then “poof” disappear for a couple of years to avoid first yr pay/build seniority. Not sure how you can even stop it but its a racket for sure. These guys arr not deploying overseas, they are hanging out at the unit. Once again, stupid conversation because how do you stop it?
A fair amount of the Air Force pilots in class openly talked about when to “drop orders”. Reasons ranged from the already stated- not sitting reserve, commuting, or until seniority could hold PHX...

It’s absolutely their right but other pilots are allowed to have an opinion on it.

I’m guessing there are other places to ask this question other than a public forum.
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Old 10-15-2019, 07:59 AM   #24  
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Protecting from what?


A person that would ask this question would logically be in favor of dissolving the military. Are you that person?


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Old 10-15-2019, 08:17 AM   #25  
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A person that would ask this question would logically be in favor of dissolving the military. Are you that person?


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In most western countries people realize the military has become political enforcement tool, and the USA is probably the poster child.
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Old 10-15-2019, 08:33 AM   #26  
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In most western countries people realize the military has become political enforcement tool, and the USA is probably the poster child.


So you are saying the military offers no protection to the nation and it’s populace? Because when you read your post and the previous post I replied to, that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.


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Old 10-15-2019, 08:41 AM   #27  
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So you are saying the military offers no protection to the nation and it’s populace? Because when you read your post and the previous post I replied to, that’s what it sounds like you’re saying.


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The protection it offers is grossly disproportionate to it's cost and reverence.

Even suggesting this provokes a heretic level response from most members of the military.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:28 AM   #28  
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A fair amount of the Air Force pilots in class openly talked about when to “drop orders”. Reasons ranged from the already stated- not sitting reserve, commuting, or until seniority could hold PHX...

It’s absolutely their right but other pilots are allowed to have an opinion on it.

I’m guessing there are other places to ask this question other than a public forum.
Indeed. Look, basically people are speaking the quiet parts out loud in here, and some are gonna get miffed about it. It's not that surprising, in what is essentially is a MLOA echo chamber.

It's an open secret, it's discussed widely in reserve circles, and I personally have no particular motivation to put effort in ensuring civi only pilots never become aware of the practice. It's a legal loophole plain and simple, and good bad or indifferent, it's the law. But as you said, people should also have the freedom to be critical of it without being accused of lack of patriotism. I'll be the first one to push back on that "you can't be critical of the military as a civilian" canard.

On a personal level, the one thing I have the most objection to is the VA disability payment and rating abuse. This encompasses more than pilots mind you, it's an at-large national problem imo but I digress.

I do think current MLOA benefit retainment allowances is ripe for abuse; it is abused, and it's legal. That's my opinion of course, which doesn't matter. For whatever it's worth, there are other ways of splitting the middle on this issue without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. IMO, if USERRA protected seniority accrual, but did not protect longevity pay accrual, this problem would vanish overnight. I think that would be a reasonable compromise. I can hear the blood curling screech from the MLOA bat caves though. Not my fight, just saying there's other ways to do this without creating polarization. To each their own.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:45 AM   #29  
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Indeed. Look, basically people are speaking the quiet parts out loud in here, and some are gonna get miffed about it. It's not that surprising, in what is essentially is a MLOA echo chamber.



It's an open secret, it's discussed widely in reserve circles, and I personally have no particular motivation to put effort in ensuring civi only pilots never become aware of the practice. It's a legal loophole plain and simple, and good bad or indifferent, it's the law. But as you said, people should also have the freedom to be critical of it without being accused of lack of patriotism. I'll be the first one to push back on that "you can't be critical of the military as a civilian" canard.



On a personal level, the one thing I have the most objection to is the VA disability payment and rating abuse. This encompasses more than pilots mind you, it's an at-large national problem imo but I digress.



I do think current MLOA benefit retainment allowances is ripe for abuse; it is abused, and it's legal. That's my opinion of course, which doesn't matter. For whatever it's worth, there are other ways of splitting the middle on this issue without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. IMO, if USERRA protected seniority accrual, but did not protect longevity pay accrual, this problem would vanish overnight. I think that would be a reasonable compromise. I can hear the blood curling screech from the MLOA bat caves though. Not my fight, just saying there's other ways to do this without creating polarization. To each their own.


This is how you make an argument, people. I still disagree, but this is infinitely more thought provoking and defensible than “the military doesn’t protect us” and “the military is, like, just a political arm of the government, man.”

A few things: As long as the person on mil leave is performing mil duty in any capacity, there is no “abuse” taking place. And for the vast majority of guard/reserve pilots, taking mil leave is a very bad deal. I take a significant pay cut every time I have to drop mil. So I’m working harder and making less money, and I don’t know of very many people for whom this isn’t the case.

Lastly, even if you think it’s being abused (it’s not), and even if you think it’s unfair (debatable at best), it’s a known quantity to everyone going in. My main point of contention is that no one should be criticizing someone for exercising a right that is known to everyone. You can criticize the policy, but don’t blame someone when they utilize it, especially when that person has made personal sacrifices for the good of their fellow citizens. You know, don’t hate the player and all that.




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Old 10-15-2019, 10:07 AM   #30  
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If the company had a problem with it then they would tweak their hiring metrics to maybe not hire as many mil or reserve guys. You know they know, they know you know they know, etc.

In other words, it's really not something to get upset about IMO. It's a harmless practice and if China were to launch a ground attack on Taiwan or Hong Kong tomorrow, guess who is going over there? Not me...I'll be at home on my sofa.
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