The AA Flow-Thru Agreements MUST END
11-07-2019, 05:07 PM
#33
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2019
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by 6ix9ineYearFlow
The American Airlines flow-thru agreement with its wholly-owned subsidiaries need to end immediately. Here's why:
Starting in 2020, the airline in industry is going to see over 6,000 mainline pilots (legacy, major, national, U/LCC, cargo, etc.) hired per year for the foreseeable future. SIX THOUSAND. United is hiring 4,000 between now and 2022 (averages around 1,300 per year), Delta just announced they're hiring over 1,300 pilots in 2020 which will likely continue for years to come to keep up with their retirements, American Airlines is hiring around 1,300 pilots next year and will continue to hire at least 900 per year to offset retirements, Southwest & JetBlue are on a hiring streak of roughly 600 per year and indicate they will continue to do so. FedEx is both growing and dealing with their own retirements with a forecast of around 800 pilots being hired next year, UPS is dealing with the same issues and will be hiring well over 300 next year. Spirit announced a huge aircraft order last month and will be hiring 600-700 pilots per year for growth for at least the next 4 years. Frontier is hiring at least 30 per month for at least the next 6 years to build up their pilot group given their large purchase order of aircraft. Moxy is allegedly starting up within the next 2 years and will need to hire a few hundred pilots just to get kickstarted. Allegiant is hiring 100-200 pilots per year as well. I guess there is also Sun Country and all those other ACMI outfits as well, but meh.
All that said, six thousand pilots is a conservative estimate for number of pilots needed per year at mainline. That's A LOT of movement. Let's consider the applicant pools --
Regional Airlines. Regionals have roughly 20,000 pilots on their books; given that mainline hires mostly captains, the applicant pool is in the ballpark of 10,000 pilots. Of those, approximately 10% are lifers with another 5-10% that are unhireable due to DUIs, criminal backgrounds, too many checkride failures, etc. That leaves us with 8,500ish eligible regional captains. Now consider the pool of pilots with a pilot resume that differentiates them from the standard "I'm a pilot, I fly" resume (undergrad or graduate degree, volunteer work, veteran status, leadership roles, extra type ratings, etc.). Extremely competitive competitive candidates are going to get purged very quickly.
Non-Legacies & ACMI. This one is a tough one to predict. If the company has a decent contract and a pilot on property is already a captain at a place like Spirit or Kalitta, it'd be tough to leave to give up the pay, schedule, retirement, etc. The people most tempted to leave are going to be first officers at these companies. Interestingly enough, places like Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant have been to known to hire guys with little to no TPIC time in order to keep them from getting snagged up from the legacy carriers with time in an A320 type. That said, the competitive pool - so long as TPIC is a discriminator - is probably lower than people would think.
Corporate & Fractionals. They definitely have a shot at a major if they want it, but they'll likely need a higher experience threshold to be considered since the majors (or at least the legacies) like 121 experience. This applicant pool is hard to predict in terms of numbers and overall competitiveness.
Military. In any given year, there's roughly 800-1,200 military fixed-wing pilots leaving the service. Not all of them are going to pursue a career in the airlines, but given the career opportunity, many nowadays likely are strongly considering it.
Now consider the current flow-thru agreement with AA....
Approximately 50% of all new hires from AA are coming from their flow-thru. Meanwhile, most pilots at Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA have applications out to all of the aforementioned companies hiring en masse in 2020 and beyond. Therefore, most of the competitive or desirable candidates in the years ahead are going to get snatched up elsewhere before they ever come close to flowing to mainline. AA thinks the flow-thru is a carrot for keeping their regional carriers staffed - which is true insofar as recruitment goes. However, it blows my mind that AA effectively has zero control in 50% of their new hires throughout this hiring wave.
The flow-thru has allowed some highly experienced regional captains familiar with the AA system come over to mAAinline in recent years which is great for the pilot and great for the company. However, that's simply going to be less and less the case in years ahead. It would be one thing if AA's regional carriers applied the same high level of scrutiny to their pilot new hires as did AA mainline, but given the squeeze on recruiting at the regional levels, there were periods of time where the wholly-owned carriers were hiring everyone with a pulse.
By eliminating the flow-thru, AA can have 100% discretion in their hiring practices and compete for the limited pool of highly competitive candidates rather than relegating 50% of their new hires to come from flow through candidates that were undesirable by other major carriers.
Discuss.
Starting in 2020, the airline in industry is going to see over 6,000 mainline pilots (legacy, major, national, U/LCC, cargo, etc.) hired per year for the foreseeable future. SIX THOUSAND. United is hiring 4,000 between now and 2022 (averages around 1,300 per year), Delta just announced they're hiring over 1,300 pilots in 2020 which will likely continue for years to come to keep up with their retirements, American Airlines is hiring around 1,300 pilots next year and will continue to hire at least 900 per year to offset retirements, Southwest & JetBlue are on a hiring streak of roughly 600 per year and indicate they will continue to do so. FedEx is both growing and dealing with their own retirements with a forecast of around 800 pilots being hired next year, UPS is dealing with the same issues and will be hiring well over 300 next year. Spirit announced a huge aircraft order last month and will be hiring 600-700 pilots per year for growth for at least the next 4 years. Frontier is hiring at least 30 per month for at least the next 6 years to build up their pilot group given their large purchase order of aircraft. Moxy is allegedly starting up within the next 2 years and will need to hire a few hundred pilots just to get kickstarted. Allegiant is hiring 100-200 pilots per year as well. I guess there is also Sun Country and all those other ACMI outfits as well, but meh.
All that said, six thousand pilots is a conservative estimate for number of pilots needed per year at mainline. That's A LOT of movement. Let's consider the applicant pools --
Regional Airlines. Regionals have roughly 20,000 pilots on their books; given that mainline hires mostly captains, the applicant pool is in the ballpark of 10,000 pilots. Of those, approximately 10% are lifers with another 5-10% that are unhireable due to DUIs, criminal backgrounds, too many checkride failures, etc. That leaves us with 8,500ish eligible regional captains. Now consider the pool of pilots with a pilot resume that differentiates them from the standard "I'm a pilot, I fly" resume (undergrad or graduate degree, volunteer work, veteran status, leadership roles, extra type ratings, etc.). Extremely competitive competitive candidates are going to get purged very quickly.
Non-Legacies & ACMI. This one is a tough one to predict. If the company has a decent contract and a pilot on property is already a captain at a place like Spirit or Kalitta, it'd be tough to leave to give up the pay, schedule, retirement, etc. The people most tempted to leave are going to be first officers at these companies. Interestingly enough, places like Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant have been to known to hire guys with little to no TPIC time in order to keep them from getting snagged up from the legacy carriers with time in an A320 type. That said, the competitive pool - so long as TPIC is a discriminator - is probably lower than people would think.
Corporate & Fractionals. They definitely have a shot at a major if they want it, but they'll likely need a higher experience threshold to be considered since the majors (or at least the legacies) like 121 experience. This applicant pool is hard to predict in terms of numbers and overall competitiveness.
Military. In any given year, there's roughly 800-1,200 military fixed-wing pilots leaving the service. Not all of them are going to pursue a career in the airlines, but given the career opportunity, many nowadays likely are strongly considering it.
Now consider the current flow-thru agreement with AA....
Approximately 50% of all new hires from AA are coming from their flow-thru. Meanwhile, most pilots at Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA have applications out to all of the aforementioned companies hiring en masse in 2020 and beyond. Therefore, most of the competitive or desirable candidates in the years ahead are going to get snatched up elsewhere before they ever come close to flowing to mainline. AA thinks the flow-thru is a carrot for keeping their regional carriers staffed - which is true insofar as recruitment goes. However, it blows my mind that AA effectively has zero control in 50% of their new hires throughout this hiring wave.
The flow-thru has allowed some highly experienced regional captains familiar with the AA system come over to mAAinline in recent years which is great for the pilot and great for the company. However, that's simply going to be less and less the case in years ahead. It would be one thing if AA's regional carriers applied the same high level of scrutiny to their pilot new hires as did AA mainline, but given the squeeze on recruiting at the regional levels, there were periods of time where the wholly-owned carriers were hiring everyone with a pulse.
By eliminating the flow-thru, AA can have 100% discretion in their hiring practices and compete for the limited pool of highly competitive candidates rather than relegating 50% of their new hires to come from flow through candidates that were undesirable by other major carriers.
Discuss.
Last edited by Zezima; 11-07-2019 at 05:35 PM.
11-07-2019, 07:22 PM
#35
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,228
Originally Posted by flyinawa
The same one that provides 24/7/365 transportation to the traveling public.
It should definitely be 24/7/52.
11-07-2019, 09:04 PM
#36
Hire me
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 406
Originally Posted by 450knotOffice
I start upgrade training on the day after Thanksgiving, so I need to fly out to DFW on Thanksgiving.
So AA still does that. Whatever. A little annoying, but it is what it is.
So AA still does that. Whatever. A little annoying, but it is what it is.
Congrats on the upgrade, Captain.
11-08-2019, 05:23 PM
#38
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 243
Originally Posted by 6ix9ineYearFlow
The American Airlines flow-thru agreement with its wholly-owned subsidiaries need to end immediately. Here's why:
Starting in 2020, the airline in industry is going to see over 6,000 mainline pilots (legacy, major, national, U/LCC, cargo, etc.) hired per year for the foreseeable future. SIX THOUSAND. United is hiring 4,000 between now and 2022 (averages around 1,300 per year), Delta just announced they're hiring over 1,300 pilots in 2020 which will likely continue for years to come to keep up with their retirements, American Airlines is hiring around 1,300 pilots next year and will continue to hire at least 900 per year to offset retirements, Southwest & JetBlue are on a hiring streak of roughly 600 per year and indicate they will continue to do so. FedEx is both growing and dealing with their own retirements with a forecast of around 800 pilots being hired next year, UPS is dealing with the same issues and will be hiring well over 300 next year. Spirit announced a huge aircraft order last month and will be hiring 600-700 pilots per year for growth for at least the next 4 years. Frontier is hiring at least 30 per month for at least the next 6 years to build up their pilot group given their large purchase order of aircraft. Moxy is allegedly starting up within the next 2 years and will need to hire a few hundred pilots just to get kickstarted. Allegiant is hiring 100-200 pilots per year as well. I guess there is also Sun Country and all those other ACMI outfits as well, but meh.
All that said, six thousand pilots is a conservative estimate for number of pilots needed per year at mainline. That's A LOT of movement. Let's consider the applicant pools --
Regional Airlines. Regionals have roughly 20,000 pilots on their books; given that mainline hires mostly captains, the applicant pool is in the ballpark of 10,000 pilots. Of those, approximately 10% are lifers with another 5-10% that are unhireable due to DUIs, criminal backgrounds, too many checkride failures, etc. That leaves us with 8,500ish eligible regional captains. Now consider the pool of pilots with a pilot resume that differentiates them from the standard "I'm a pilot, I fly" resume (undergrad or graduate degree, volunteer work, veteran status, leadership roles, extra type ratings, etc.). Extremely competitive competitive candidates are going to get purged very quickly.
Non-Legacies & ACMI. This one is a tough one to predict. If the company has a decent contract and a pilot on property is already a captain at a place like Spirit or Kalitta, it'd be tough to leave to give up the pay, schedule, retirement, etc. The people most tempted to leave are going to be first officers at these companies. Interestingly enough, places like Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant have been to known to hire guys with little to no TPIC time in order to keep them from getting snagged up from the legacy carriers with time in an A320 type. That said, the competitive pool - so long as TPIC is a discriminator - is probably lower than people would think.
Corporate & Fractionals. They definitely have a shot at a major if they want it, but they'll likely need a higher experience threshold to be considered since the majors (or at least the legacies) like 121 experience. This applicant pool is hard to predict in terms of numbers and overall competitiveness.
Military. In any given year, there's roughly 800-1,200 military fixed-wing pilots leaving the service. Not all of them are going to pursue a career in the airlines, but given the career opportunity, many nowadays likely are strongly considering it.
Now consider the current flow-thru agreement with AA....
Approximately 50% of all new hires from AA are coming from their flow-thru. Meanwhile, most pilots at Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA have applications out to all of the aforementioned companies hiring en masse in 2020 and beyond. Therefore, most of the competitive or desirable candidates in the years ahead are going to get snatched up elsewhere before they ever come close to flowing to mainline. AA thinks the flow-thru is a carrot for keeping their regional carriers staffed - which is true insofar as recruitment goes. However, it blows my mind that AA effectively has zero control in 50% of their new hires throughout this hiring wave.
The flow-thru has allowed some highly experienced regional captains familiar with the AA system come over to mAAinline in recent years which is great for the pilot and great for the company. However, that's simply going to be less and less the case in years ahead. It would be one thing if AA's regional carriers applied the same high level of scrutiny to their pilot new hires as did AA mainline, but given the squeeze on recruiting at the regional levels, there were periods of time where the wholly-owned carriers were hiring everyone with a pulse.
By eliminating the flow-thru, AA can have 100% discretion in their hiring practices and compete for the limited pool of highly competitive candidates rather than relegating 50% of their new hires to come from flow through candidates that were undesirable by other major carriers.
Discuss.
Starting in 2020, the airline in industry is going to see over 6,000 mainline pilots (legacy, major, national, U/LCC, cargo, etc.) hired per year for the foreseeable future. SIX THOUSAND. United is hiring 4,000 between now and 2022 (averages around 1,300 per year), Delta just announced they're hiring over 1,300 pilots in 2020 which will likely continue for years to come to keep up with their retirements, American Airlines is hiring around 1,300 pilots next year and will continue to hire at least 900 per year to offset retirements, Southwest & JetBlue are on a hiring streak of roughly 600 per year and indicate they will continue to do so. FedEx is both growing and dealing with their own retirements with a forecast of around 800 pilots being hired next year, UPS is dealing with the same issues and will be hiring well over 300 next year. Spirit announced a huge aircraft order last month and will be hiring 600-700 pilots per year for growth for at least the next 4 years. Frontier is hiring at least 30 per month for at least the next 6 years to build up their pilot group given their large purchase order of aircraft. Moxy is allegedly starting up within the next 2 years and will need to hire a few hundred pilots just to get kickstarted. Allegiant is hiring 100-200 pilots per year as well. I guess there is also Sun Country and all those other ACMI outfits as well, but meh.
All that said, six thousand pilots is a conservative estimate for number of pilots needed per year at mainline. That's A LOT of movement. Let's consider the applicant pools --
Regional Airlines. Regionals have roughly 20,000 pilots on their books; given that mainline hires mostly captains, the applicant pool is in the ballpark of 10,000 pilots. Of those, approximately 10% are lifers with another 5-10% that are unhireable due to DUIs, criminal backgrounds, too many checkride failures, etc. That leaves us with 8,500ish eligible regional captains. Now consider the pool of pilots with a pilot resume that differentiates them from the standard "I'm a pilot, I fly" resume (undergrad or graduate degree, volunteer work, veteran status, leadership roles, extra type ratings, etc.). Extremely competitive competitive candidates are going to get purged very quickly.
Non-Legacies & ACMI. This one is a tough one to predict. If the company has a decent contract and a pilot on property is already a captain at a place like Spirit or Kalitta, it'd be tough to leave to give up the pay, schedule, retirement, etc. The people most tempted to leave are going to be first officers at these companies. Interestingly enough, places like Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant have been to known to hire guys with little to no TPIC time in order to keep them from getting snagged up from the legacy carriers with time in an A320 type. That said, the competitive pool - so long as TPIC is a discriminator - is probably lower than people would think.
Corporate & Fractionals. They definitely have a shot at a major if they want it, but they'll likely need a higher experience threshold to be considered since the majors (or at least the legacies) like 121 experience. This applicant pool is hard to predict in terms of numbers and overall competitiveness.
Military. In any given year, there's roughly 800-1,200 military fixed-wing pilots leaving the service. Not all of them are going to pursue a career in the airlines, but given the career opportunity, many nowadays likely are strongly considering it.
Now consider the current flow-thru agreement with AA....
Approximately 50% of all new hires from AA are coming from their flow-thru. Meanwhile, most pilots at Envoy, Piedmont, and PSA have applications out to all of the aforementioned companies hiring en masse in 2020 and beyond. Therefore, most of the competitive or desirable candidates in the years ahead are going to get snatched up elsewhere before they ever come close to flowing to mainline. AA thinks the flow-thru is a carrot for keeping their regional carriers staffed - which is true insofar as recruitment goes. However, it blows my mind that AA effectively has zero control in 50% of their new hires throughout this hiring wave.
The flow-thru has allowed some highly experienced regional captains familiar with the AA system come over to mAAinline in recent years which is great for the pilot and great for the company. However, that's simply going to be less and less the case in years ahead. It would be one thing if AA's regional carriers applied the same high level of scrutiny to their pilot new hires as did AA mainline, but given the squeeze on recruiting at the regional levels, there were periods of time where the wholly-owned carriers were hiring everyone with a pulse.
By eliminating the flow-thru, AA can have 100% discretion in their hiring practices and compete for the limited pool of highly competitive candidates rather than relegating 50% of their new hires to come from flow through candidates that were undesirable by other major carriers.
Discuss.
Anyone who's a captain on anything is competitive and desirable. Please stop trying to act like being a pilot of a 737 is any different than one who flies a crj or erj.
11-08-2019, 05:45 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 404
Originally Posted by UPTme
You bid for an upgrade on a bid that trends junior. It trends junior because there is a risk of holiday training.
Congrats on the upgrade, Captain.
Congrats on the upgrade, Captain.
11-08-2019, 08:04 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by UPTme
You bid for an upgrade on a bid that trends junior. It trends junior because there is a risk of holiday training.
Congrats on the upgrade, Captain.
Congrats on the upgrade, Captain.
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