No. What nuball wrote is exactly how the LOA works at JB.

I'll openly admit I am speaking from no expertise, just my own opinion. I am with you, I didn't like (obviously pre-covid) that the ALV was in the 80's and I was always shacked with 85 or so hours. Ergo, Why didn't we discuss ALV as part of a furlough mitigation option (as you said, it was discussed in Section 6)? I know I don't have as much info as the union reps do, I just would have liked an explanation as to why it wasn't even considered. I know union work can be thankless, so I am not necessarily chucking spears...I just would have liked to know the reasoning.

Yeah, we can all benefit from a union that isn't top heavy and only looks out for the interest of the most senior members. This isn't a new thing for APA. It's always been a caution regarding them long before Covid.

And yes, being vocal and expressing grievances is exactly what we should all do. It's how any democracy works from nations to unions. Telling someone "if you don't like it do something yourself" is a cheap and pathetic reasoning. By that logic we should all just roll over and accept anything that comes down our way. Maybe that's great for you. It's definitely not how the rest of us work..

Reducing AVL without reducing min guarantee doesn’t save the company any money.

I specifically asked a BOD member about this. He said that reducing ALVs wouldn't reduce guarantee, just would ensure everyone is getting paid the guarantee line value at the start of the month. I also asked how many pilots this would save. His answer: "I don't know". Then I asked about the cost associated with furloughing 2500 pilots. Once again: "I don't know".

We should have all been more vocal about this during negotiations. I personally feel like I failed because I put so much trust in APA beforehand. I won't make that mistake again. And yes, I fully plan on volunteering once back from furlough or whatever they want to call this sh## show. And in 8 to 10 years when the next crises hits our industry, and the talk of furloughs start again..I will be the first to advocate we all pull together to save the bottom guys. Hard times like this hit all of us collectively. We rise or fall together like boats in a harbor. Unfortunately the mentality of those at the top right now is a bit different.

Im with you as well. Never did anything w the union prior or w APA but this was worst thing i’ve ever seen. And i’m just talking about the damn communications about it. I got a lot of “I dont know or, or not even a response” Sure gave me the uneasy feeling that APA was WAY in over their heads w this one. But! maybe they will run this bid before AA and have the hard numbers so we can at least keep AA honest about what their plan is right.. Crickets about that question as well. As soon as I saw people who were voted out of positions back into important ones I had the feeling we would just be taken out back and shot. Down to hoping AA saves families or the govt. But, ya know everyone had it so bad before and this is just the way it goes. There is only 1 group apa looks after. And it’s the one w that SimP is apart of. He stood up, and asked to furlough more pilots than them because they are cheaper to save them. Dude was a retired g4 ckm. breath... “6 more years 6 more years..Seeing the water canons will make me shed tears of happiness.

Did APA have enough leverage to get anything from AA? It sounds like AA said here is what we are offering. Take it or leave it. I believe this because it is very similar to the offers that other work groups received. JetBlue pilots had leverage because the company needed them to agree to the Code share. Has United or Delta decreased ALV? If the board having a 20-0 vote for the LOAs means we were lucky to get what we did. There are some very junior people on the board and negotiating committee. Call them and ask what happened.

I feel the same way. My reps shot down any rationalization I tried to provide about reducing ALV, specifically the win-win scenario we as a company would be in on the other side of this. There were literally no downsides to doing it aside from pilots in a non-flying (widebody) status getting a little less pay for a few months. It really showed me the arrogance of APA and the disparity in their ranks from the average line pilot. My ideas were met with “we had the lost decade and you new pilots will have 30 plus years of high earnings and 401k contributions” etc. My response is, really?? Isn’t that what those hired pre-9/11 thought?? You couldn’t predict the future then, so don’t start now!

Anyway, APA is going to be in for a shock when we do finally get in section 6 again in a few more years. The demographic they’re representing now is far from the demographic that will be represented then.

God forbid so much as one senior Captain potentially only make $23k one month vs $26k. Better to throw 2500 pilots out on the street. I love that Chip Long didn't play any games on the last PTT. APA has been attempting to blame management and convince us this was the best they could do. Then Chip comes along and throws shade right back.. telling us all what we already knew.

Management was willing to talk about reduced ALVs. APA refused. So here we are. And the furlough line before all of this was about 1200. Maybe 1600 on the extreme high end. It wasn't 2500. Reduced ALVs and other mitigation measures would have reduced furloughs down from 1200. Instead..APA decided to throw all 2500 under the bus and not actually mitigate anything unless senior pilots take ZTLs. Basically putting the onus of mitigation on the pilot group.

You can't make this up. It's unbelievable.

It has been stated by APA that they never tried to negotiate the ALV reduction at all. So we have no idea what the company was willing to do. We don’t need leverage if it’s good for both parties.