Wiskey Driver

I will grab the list and let you know later but he have lost due to this merger and that is even to people that brought jobs to this to those who only brought a furlough number. That can not be denied.

WD at AWA

R57 relay

Why do you argue this? From the opinion and award:

"The US Airways initial proposal was grounded on a pilot's Date of
Hire adjusted for Length of Service." Just as TP said.

Now the paragons of truth and fairness put forth this gem:

"As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction[two whole years and just the 330s, wow how generous] reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
first proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005."

"this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees."

"Like that of US Airways, America West's position was not
substantially modified during the proceedings. It conceded that the
term of its proposed fence might be lengthened, but it continued to
insist that it apply only to Captains sufficient to staff 9 A330s, saying
that 8 767 international flying was highly seasonal; that 8 767s and
8 757s are both Group I aircraft for pilot pay purposes, and that bidding
experience shows that 8 767 flying is not highly prized."

Yes, that's right, you guys not only wanted to staple previously furloughed pilots that had returned and were active on the date Nicolau used, but another 959 pilots that were working on the date of the merger. That's not greedy, huh?

Have you actually read the Opinion and Award? It's conveniently located on cactuspilot.com. Take a look.

BOTH sides tried to put forth their strongest positions to Nicolau, yet you call us greedy. That's the problem with negotiate, mediate, arbitrate. Everybody assumes that it will go to arbitration and they are afraid to show anything in the first two phases that will weaken the last. I've suggested to our merger committee that if we merge with AA that we have an agreement that any discussions in negotiations won't be held against the other side in mediation, arbitration.

R57 relay

You have lost compared to where you were and compared to the unrealistic expectations of what was coming. If all airline pilots wore those blinders they would all think they "lost". According to the guy that knows better than you or I, you are better off now than you would have been. Any reasonable person would agree with him with what has happened with our economy and the other airlines around the world. AWA's trajectory was about to head for the ground. Again from the Nicolau opinion and award:

"The America West Representatives concede that the scheduled
repayments of the Company's ATSB loan created potential liquidity
problems for the airline."

From a Crew News session, September 2011. Doug Parker:

"But I'm happy to go through what did happen if it helps.
What happened is in 2005, first off, at the risk of offending people, US Airways was on the verge of liquidation, not bankruptcy. We were already in bankruptcy. We were going, I believe without a merger, would have liquidated. So be it.

I think that's where this some of this comes from with the "we saved you" stuff. But you got to finish the story.
USAir, America West was not in dramatically better shape. While we weren't on the verge of, you know, going away liquidating, as I have said a number of times, I believe without a merger well, let me tell you. By putting the two companies together, a lot of new money came in is the answer to your question.
America West did not have the money to go fund the merger or anything close to it. And, indeed, I think America West standalone this is this gets some America West people upset because, you know, they anyway, whatever reason.
But my view is, and a highly educated view on this point, is that America West would have been bankrupt by the end of 2005.
If you recall, by the end of 2005, Delta and Northwest both filed, and I don't think America West could have I'm pretty sure I'm actually, virtually certain that America West would have filed bankruptcy because we didn't have enough cash to make it through the winter in that environment.
So and then more importantly, as it relates to America West, the reason the merger was so important to America West is America West was an airline that lived off a cost structure advantage.
Much like I describe to US Airways employees now, how we don't have the same revenue generating capabilities as American, Delta, and United, who are bigger than us. America West had that in spades.
A Phoenix hub never had the ability to generate the kind of revenues US Airways did, for example. But the airline survived 25 years by having much lower costs, and those lower costs almost entirely labor based.
So what had happened is, is you, you know, looking around the world, here at US Airways, for example, had gotten its labor costs through two bankruptcies and a lot of pain down to matching America West.
That did not look like a good formula for the America West for America West Airlines. You have an airline now that has, not the same ability to generate revenues, and the same costs as the guys who can generate a lot more revenues than you. Those airlines go away.
So whether or not America West would have filed, you know, in late 2005, like I believe, that airline, I'm certain, wouldn't have been able to stand alone on its own in today's environment. You know, much like Frontier, was very it's very similar I think to America West.
You know, small West Coast, whole entirely labor cost based cost advantage. And, you know, Frontier went bankrupt. They are still floating around somewhere, but, you know, they are a fifth of the size they used to be. And I think that's the best I think America West could have done on its own.
So the merger helped both of us, and in a huge way. I don't think America West would have made it on its own. I'm certain US Airways wouldn't have. And with the merger, what we were able to do you know, which, again, I think we should all feel good about we were able to go convince people that, while these two airlines on their own are having trouble, we can put them together and build a real airline, and all we need is cash.
And so will you, Mr. Investor, invest in this?
Now, we found some people who wanted to do that because they didn't want us to go away, like GE, who had a lot of airplanes leased to us, and Airbus, who had a lot of airplanes on order to both companies. So they put in monies because they didn't want to see us go away.
But we found some other, you know, just true equity investors, you know, stockholders that said, yeah, that looks like something that will work. I'll invest in that.
So the money that came to fund the merger didn't exist, and neither airline could have raised it on their own. It only came from the power of the merger.
So the merger saved both of us. So if anybody tells you, We saved you, vice versa, they are wrong. We saved each other. And we saved each other by merging the two companies and building a stronger airline.
And, again, I haven't had to say this in a few years, but I have said it a lot. And the story has been entirely consistent. So it's a little frustrating to me to have to keep saying it because I, like you, get tired of hearing this stuff.
It's just absolutely.
SPEAKER: That's exactly what it was.
MR. PARKER: It's just absolutely inaccurate.
So, anyway, hopefully this will help. We have filmed it. People can watch it, but that's what happened.
SPEAKER: (Unintelligible).
MR. PARKER: But, anyway, but that's the point. But, anyway, the answer is, you know, we needed each other. And I know we still got a lot of work to do. As Eddie says, we haven't quite gotten the marriage completed.
But, you know, if we hadn't gotten the engagement done, we wouldn't be here."

Yes, I know what you're thinking. "He was just blowing smoke to make you guys feel better!" Yeah, a CEO on film "blowing smoke."

The merger saved us both and put us both in an entirely different position. You are mad because you perceive that the east has benefited more. I get that and wish that it had been different. But, the transition award allowed it, that's just a fact. Time to move on.

R57 relay

Still waiting on that new hire captain thing and did you get a chance to read TA-9. Yep, there it is. The COMPANY'S furlough out of seniority was upheld by, wait for it, wait for it.........an arbitrator. Those guys you love so much.

Wiskey Driver

The fact that TA9 exist is material to my original arguement so thanks for bringing it up. But for the east and the great stall maneuver that little gem would not even exist. The east has used its majority and to great success mind you, to stall out this process. LCC is two companies in one and thanks to the east and the great stall manuever we all get to suffer the effects of a east imposed B scale.

DOH adjusted or not was just plain WRONG and this is exactly what the arbitrator saw. It would have done a tremendous amount of harm whereby you would have swapped your furloughs for our active pilots, further it would have taken your most JR pilot and made him and mid level line holding capt. I know you want to just overlook that tidbit. The bottom line is that arbitrator got it right and baring anymore delay by Horton to get this merger done that point will finally be driven home. I certainly hope our f/o's decide to take as many open capt slots as possible. What you have done like i've said is nothing short of criminal.

WD at AWA

R57 relay

Wow. Using the language in the transition agreement is criminal. Remember that AA pilots. Former AWA pilots only want to honor agreements when it suits them.

ALPA told you guys that you were at risk because of the T/A language. You ignored them. Oh well.

I don't think you will get your wish. Former AWA pilots don't intend to leave PHX, don't want to fly trans-Atlantic etc. Yeah, right.

You take care now, you sound a little tense.

Typhoonpilot

In the short term you are absolutely correct. The disparity between the two lists is too great for adjusted DOH to have worked.

However, in the long term, relative position does significant harm to the junior east pilots. They should be allowed to have advancement up the seniority list based on the attrition rate that the east side brought to the merger. The relative position integration robs them of that and does substantial harm to their career over the long term

The east merger committee recognized that and crafted conditions and restrictions to mitigate any advantage to the east over the short term while preserving the attrition based advancement to the junior east pilot.

Now, that said, their terms and conditions were a starting point for negotiation. Much like when you go buy a car. You don't offer what you are willing to pay on the first round of negotiations, you offer something far off. The terms and conditions could have been negotiated to a win/win for both sides.

The sad fact of the matter is that isn't what happened and now both sides are paying for the West's lack of foresight.

I am participating in this discussion since I strongly believe that ALPA pilots should treat each other with respect. The east pilots are not responsible for their managment running the company into the ground. ALPA pilots ( all pilot groups for that matter ) should never use economic reasons to try to gain an advantage over another in a merger.

It is sickening to see what has occured over the last 20 years. AA stapling TWA pilots. SWA wanting to staple Frontier pilots. SWA pretty much stapling all the Air Tran F.O.s. And yes, AWA wanting to staple junior USAirways F.O.s and take away their attrition based advancement.

You'll argue that USAirways pilots wanted to take away AWA captain's seats. That is just not true. The Conditions and Restrictions would have kept a minimum number of AWA captain positions:

Also they would have been entitled to one third of the EMB 190 captain positions.

That was the starting point of the negotiation. Those Conditions and Restrictions could have been modified as necessary to make it fair over the long and the short term for both pilot groups.

The only fair way to ever merge two pilots groups over the long term is via DOH with conditions and restrictions.

I'll bet this whole mess could be cleaned up if the west would just budge on this point. Give the east guys date of hire ( length of service even ) for bidding purposes in CLT/PHL/DCA/LGA for the next 15 years. Then they will keep their attrition based advancement. Nobody gets a windfall and nobody is harmed to a great degree.

Once that's done both side can move forward on a new contract with better pay and work rules.



Typhoonpilot

flyfast15

How about getting back on the topic of this thread(MOU). Any info on its content, when do we get to see it is been a week.

R57 relay

I thought the NDA ended today, but haven't heard a thing.

LittleBoyBlew

The interested parties are keeping the expiration date of this NDA suspiciously close to their vests..Why the cloak and dagger?? Both APA/USAPA MOUs have been finalized.. I suspect some dubious reason for prolonging the unveiling...
Drop the curtain already!!