cactiboss

The Nic is not on a shelf, it's in your contract right now.

Wiskey Driver

You answered your own question, it buys time. Read the 4 page letter then you tell me where you think this is going.

WD at AWA

LittleBoyBlew

So is a hidden map to the lost city of Atlantis...But like the Nic, it appears quite elusive...

Fly782

Not worth it

Wiskey Driver

No its in the same exact place DOH is which is where? I am willing to bet you that you end up with the NIC as the list submitted by LCC

WD at AWA

LittleBoyBlew

No Nic in mine. Now DOH, Its In YOUR Union Bylaws...You know, the one that REPRESENTS you...Any other questions??

Hiwaymiles

Let's think for a moment about the concept of "harm". The former AWA pilots say they are harmed by the date of hire seniority list when compared to the Nicolau award. This seems correct based on the difference in their placement on the integrated seniority list. This leads to the question "Is simply being 'harmed' enough to prove that USAPA breached its Duty of Fair Representation?"

The courts' answer is that simply showing that one group has been disadvantaged for the benefit of another group is not sufficient to prove a breach of DFR. If simply showing harm were enough, every 15 year First Officer could say that a contract that allows someone hired just a year or two earlier to earn substantially more over their career because the seniority system gives that union member the right to be captain breaches the union's duty to the First Officer member.

However, the union will say that the "harm" (lower career wages) done to him by a seniority based upgrade system has a legitimate union purpose - and therefore does not breach DFR.

So the question is not whether the West pilots have been harmed by being denied the benefits of the Nicolau award - the question is whether the harm is justified by a legitimate union purpose.

Judge Wake said USAPA's motive for the harm (assigning greater monetary benefits to pilots who have been employed longer) was to hurt the West pilots, and that such a motive would always be wrong, and so the Nicolau award must be used.

In their appeal to the Ninth Circuit, USAPA argued (in addition to lack of ripeness) that awarding more benefits to union members who had been employed longer was in keeping with national public policy against age discrimination - that older members had less time left in their careers to make up for what they had lost, that older members had less opportunity to get new jobs than younger members, and that rewarding members with more service to their company were all legitimate union objectives.

The Ninth Circuit ruled that since no new Collective Bargaining Agreement had actually been reached, the suit was not ripe and instructed Judge Wake to dismiss the case.

The MOU most likely contains no resolution of this issue, so in the event of a merger, unless all parties come to mutual agreement on Seniority List integration, McCaskill Bond requires an arbitration.

How that arbitration is conducted, what lists will be used, and who will be sitting at the table are interesting questions which have not yet been answered definitively.

Moby Dick

Look, I have no dog in this fight. However, it appears to me there are two legal seniority lists that will be used in an AA/LCC merger: the APA list and the Nic list. The APA list is the legal seniority list for American pilots. The Nic list is the only legally arbitrated list that conforms to U.S. law for LCC pilots.

No amount of USAPA wailing, gnashing of teeth or threatening to take their ball and go home can change that.

The only people getting punished are the guys who are accepting substandard wages in a forlorn attempt to make their DoH dream come true. It won't happen.

LittleBoyBlew

"legally arbitrated list that conforms to U.S. law for LCC pilots"???
Please explain what U.S. law?
Nic was an arbitrated list under ALPA merger policy. That policy FAILED to achieve an acceptable solution. So here we are, 6 years later and 3 major court cases, and still NO resolution.
If Nic is in fact BINDING, according to U.S. laws, it would have been mandated by the courts..
Even the 9th CCOA indicated that USAPA, and even ALPA, were free to vacate the Nic..
The Co. has been able to exploit this little war at great expense to both pilot groups. In the mean time RECORD profits have now turned USA into the new "industry sweetheart"

Wiskey Driver

The very basics seem to keep escaping the intelligent mind you touted so gleefully. I know this will be difficult but try and follow along. Do you have any idea the storm that would be created if courts were to allow companies to just change their name in an effort to avoid paying their bills, getting out of judgements or contracts?

I think you are under the impression that its really that simple. Usapa was created by the east for the east and has laid a pretty good foundation to that effect. One can not escape a contract and or an arbitration award simply by changing its name and although usapa has successfully stalled the process for 5 plus years that stalling as came at a very painful price. Many many east captains have and will continue to retire under a substandard b scale pay rate. Tons of first officer will continue to suffer under an $85/hr top pay rate while watching their counterparts and Spirit and Jetblue leave them behind. The entire east pilot group has and will continue to suffer under the constraints of LOA93.

This is akin to watching someone commit self mutilation. I guess I will never understand the mentality of a group that would rather harm the whole than to accept what is evident and move forward. I really feel sorry for you and your family, you should be doing much better than you are but you choose to suffer.

WD at AWA