eaglefly

Please god help me these people.

In all likelihood you WILL have representation (and I would WANT you too), it just wont be USAPA as a recognized bargaining agent. You will have a merger committee capable of at least negotiating and then if that fails, your final position could (and SHOULD) be presented to the arbitration panel just as it will the Wests and perhaps even certain others who could include statements (hopefully). USAPA is a divisive caustic force that hasn't a single, solitary positive thing to show for one minute of their existence. They've sought to tear down and subvert every conflict they've become involved in and their primary tactics are to delay, misrepresent and destroy and so shouldn't be a part of this process IMO, so the longer they are relevant, the HARDER it gets, not easier. nothing is "easy" when USAPA is present.

I'm convinced there IS no answer I can give to your question. Why ?

Because if I've learned one thing about Usapians since I've paid attention to the Nicolau and now this fiasco in discussion and debate here, which is nothing more then a "rinse and repeat" of the last delusional game they embarked on, it's that the only correct answer for you that I can give you is to agree with you.

One either agrees with Usapian logic or they are just wrong. There is no middle ground. I'm sorry you'll never get the resolution on this you desire so much. The best you can hope for, is other Usapians giving you a "haaarummphh".

SewerPipeDvr

You unintentionally hit the nail on the head. This is a legal process. USAPA in fact did sign a CONTRACT called the MOU. If it had problems with that contract the proper venue was with the System Board via a grievance, not in Federal Courts. USAPA is trying to get this into Federal Court because that is where their attorney feels the best chance of getting what they signed away back. That is all. Again I predict the Judicial will return it back to the Executive. I don't know anything about this Judge and am not going to research him but the East attorney must feel he might accept this case, or perhaps they are just hoping the delay will make the other side cave in to their demands. Everybody will just have to wait for the answer.

SewerPipeDvr

FBW44 said
"Rather, USAPA is merely attempting to arbitrate a merger protocol agreement, which is allowed via McCaskill-Bond through it's provision of Allegheny-Mohawk LPP 13.a, which allows for "any dispute or controversy ... which cannot be settled by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises... to be referred by any party to an arbitrator."

Answered in Siegal's reply to the DC filing- Section 13b. Clear and concise and meets MB. Basically says you must (13a) BUT IF then 13b. Did USAPA sign a contract or not? That is the bottom line. Deflection. A common legal tactic that does not win in court.

Capt Hindsight

You may need God for help, because I don't see many AA folks on here helping you out. Being Captain America(n) is a lonely job, isn't it?
Life is nice and simple for you define everyone on the East who differs from your opinion as a monolithic "Usapian" to fight against for truth, justice, and...yada, yada.

You really feel like you're holding court here, don't you? Starring in your own one-person show?

Let's agree our little convo has outlived its usefulness and save others the bother too. Maybe it'll free you up to handle FBW44's 'complex' answers a few pages back, rather than the standard cutsie sidestep/Usapian/Nic non-sequiturs you toss out. Nothing wrong with long winded posts, so long as you're the one providing the hot air, eh?

The last cutsie word is yours,
Capt H

SewerPipeDvr

I am not trying to pick on you or anything this fine morning but I am just trying to give you an outsiders view with a legal background (I also do not intend to get in the ****ing matches on here). I must disagree with your statement above. APA does indeed have a vested interest. NIC might (or might not) be dead but the possible damages not only to the West but to any East pilot are still floating around for a couple more years. APA will inherit any damages claim. If ANY USAPA pilot files a damages claim due to USAPA failing to fulfill their contracted duties (union promises of pay/QOL improvements) for any reason (like proving no contract improvement due to blocking the NIC) APA will be on the receiving end of the lawsuit. If a single case is won it will open the floodgate and they (APA) will file bankruptcy. So they legally have a really big interest in how this goes down. They will not allow USAPA to be a party as they will be the CBA, as is their right. They WON'T have it a one way street for themselves. Nasty arbitrators won't play that game. US Airways pilots will represent themselves both East and West. I expect APA to ask the East pilots to submit names for approval. I don't think they will accept any current USAPA officers. I believe APA will allow the West voice (as opposed to a single NC with three East and three West) again asking them to submit names for approval. Does not mean they will win anything but it will deflate future legal risk. Judge Silver did not end the West legal claims, she really did just kick the can down the road into the future. Not ripe, yet.

I believe this will be similar to the UAL/CAL integration. APA brings much more to this (it was only a strategic bankruptcy after all- big difference there) than USAir. They will get the UAL role and your group will end up like CAL. Because your group is so fragmented that will just be part of the price you pay for the last however many years this fight has been ongoing. Arbitration was started just for this purpose. There is no way any group involved directly in this can be rational and fair. It must be judged by outsiders. Accept and move on. There will be no delay after MB. Arbitration rules are firm and have a very high standard to overturn. Nearly impossible.

GrapeNuts

I think this post accurately sums up the situation. Without question, the APA would benefit from having an equal west voice in front of the arbitrators to spend more time arguing with the east over a SLI that happened seven years ago. (One of the only times in life where two against one isn't a good thing!) The worst thing for the APA would be for the US side to be united in the SLI talks, however even then, this isn't much of a threat because the east pilots voted for the MOU, the MOU dictates USAPA will not be around much longer. APA will finish the SLI (under the threat of a DFR) just like USAPA was attempting to do with the DOH cram down with the west. It seems the APA is very much aware of the DFR threat (especially with the Nicolau hanging out there, somewhere) and will act accordingly to protect the mother ship. I believe Ed James wouldn't have taken on this stance against USAPA without carefully considering the best moves for the APA going forward. By having a divided US group, being in control of the union plus the synopsis presented above by Sewer, it seems the US pilots have the deck stacked against them. But, the east pilots did it to themselves. They fought the Nic all these years, they terminally divided the US pilot group and they voted for the MOU- got big pay raises but now it is time to pay the piper for agreeing to the MOU.

PurpleTurtle

Now you are obsessing about how you are not obsessed.

You have been posing as a disinterred objective observer from Eagle flow through, with no reason to have any bias about USAPA and the Nic, yet you are more knowledgeable about the USAPA AOL fight, the lawsuits, and the Nic... more so than most USAir pilots on both sides of the issue.... and strangely you have a very opinionated position on it all.

I frankly don't know jack about the Eagle flow though or the fight with APA over all of that. And I could not care less about it. I don't obsess over reading up on the details of the Eagle/APA fight. I have no passion about the Eagle/APA fight and never will. None.

I am credible and consistent. You obsess about USAPA and the Nic more than you obsess about your own flow through issues. Why? Hmmm. I do not obsess about your flow through.

SewerPipeDvr

I don't believe that is how arbitration will go down. APA will present. East will present. West will present. The "other sides" do not get to object during the presentations. The arbitrators will listen to each groups proposals. They will ask the company for information. They will ask the different pilot reps for information. Then they will combine and formulate a outcome. These arbitrators are trained lawyers. They do know of the past years problems between East and West, but again I don't think they will "punish" the East. East pilots might be USAPA members, but USAPA is not the East pilots. They are different legal fictions. I do think USAPA nor their officers will be allowed to participate in MB due to their past and present activities. Not being the CBA they will have no rights to interfere in any way. The very best outcome would be to allow APA to become CBA and get this behind everyone fast. Otherwise you risk becoming a regional pilot (controlled by the company with crap wages/conditions). You might not be happy with the MB outcome but you will be much happier in the future if you do move on.

flybywire44

Thank you for your perspectives SewerPipeDvr & GrapeNutes.



I make a point not to share information here that I cannot in person own as fact or opinion. Please go ahead and find all of these posts.

I think everyone on this forum would greatly appreciate reviewing your evidence.

I'll get you some toe floss in the mean time.

eaglefly

The above post speaks for itself. Now you can tap dance around it all you want (call Charlotte, they'll tell you how ), but you just look more Usapian (which is what you always were). You did the same with me initially, that being representing yourself in the third person so as to gain credibility by advertising neutrality. As additional reference, I'll include some other examples JUST from this thread;

Post #1229 - (to Whiskey Driver) - "Remember, West pilots and East pilots did this to THEMSELVES" and "YOU'RE as equally responsible as Relay in this"

Shouldn't you have said, "Remember, WE did this to ourselves" and "You're as equally responsible as US in this " ?

Post #1357 - You East and West pilots are no better on this forum" and "You East and West pilots did this to yourselves".

You ARE an East pilot !

Post #1371 - Just read that one. It's obvious.

Post #1451 - "Both East and West pilots are in denial".

Wouldn't that include yourself ?

Aren't you an "East" pilot ?

There are more later ones in response to me, but what's the point ? AFAIC, your credibility is as shot as USAPA's. Face it 44, you've been B.S.ing people here all over the place for a year, it's just USAPA has convinced you B.S.ing is an honorable tactic.