Don't concern yourself. I don't see any such accusation in my reply to you, so it seems as though you see what you want to see, not what is there. Anyway, by the time one reaches my age, they shouldn't take too seriously anything told to them by either maroon tortoise or pink elephant.

 

It seems I have been picking on East pilots today (except for my friend R57, who must be working someplace) so I guess in the interest of fair play I should pick on AA pilots a bit. I disagree with the above statement. I believe although APA certainly does not want a DFR lawsuit their primary interest is keeping this East/West mess from infecting APA. They just don't want it on the property. That is why USAPA has to go before SLI. They are not best buds with management unlike some East posters proclaim. They want a strong unified workforce. One that can stand up to the company when needed. USAPA has been ineffective in this regard and it cost their members greatly both East and West. MB is the surest fastest way to get unity. No delay, no do over, no appeal. Just MB results and drive on. One single association of professional pilots.

 

Regardless of age, no one should ever take too seriously any post on a message board. Its all entertainment, after all.

 

The APA wants what is best for the APA, and any assumption to the contrary of what history shows is just plain foolhardy. The APA has never modified its actions based on a fear of a DFR nor on a desire to have a unified workgroup... no need (or proof) to speculate they have changed.

 

It's a noble goal, but from my understanding APA knows that no matter how this SLI is decided by the arbitrators, at the very least either the East or West pilots will be angry and that they will likely never be a cohesive group. They've said they expect DFR suits. They're used to operating with internal dissension. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but many here already on property are very distrustful of APA, believing they operate paternalistically as an "elite" micro group of pilots who have little interest in membership control. There has been extensive dissatisfaction among many pilots with both how they handled the contract process as well as the claim process. Add to that, that fact the next opportunity to truly engage management will be after most of the APA cadre will have retired means completing the MOU process on good terms with Parker and minimizing financial threat to the Association will be the primary goals.

A "unified army" is a great battle cry, but behind the scenes it seems self-preservation and maintaining a "team player" relationship with Parker will be key interests. I understand you may disagree though.

 

Eaglefly, you are incorrect.

I do not make statements that I know to be false. I also put forward sincere effort to present thoughtful threads as all search engines like Google index this entire forum. What we say here lives forever.

Your accusations are false. Please be aware that there are three demographics of pilots at US Airways.

East, West, and Third-List pilots. Third-list pilots lobby USAPA as a minority group and maintains an exclusive social network group with hundreds of members all verified exclusively as Third-List pilots with seniority ranging from 8 years, just a few days.

"East pilots" are US Airways pilots who were hired at legacy USAir prior to the April 19, 2005 US/AWA merger announcement.

"West pilots" are US Airways pilots who were hired at legacy America West prior to the April 19, 2005 US/AWA merger announcement.

"Third-List pilots" are all those US Airways pilots hired after the April 19, 2005 US/AWA constructive notice date.

There are over 600 Third-List pilots at US Airways. We are a growing demographic with our own concerns that generally to not incorporate the Nicolau award. Third-List pilots are truly unique in that they do not have a dog in the Nicolau vs Date of Hire fight. However, we are your counterparts in this SLI merger Eaglefly.

Not being an East pilot or being a Third-List pilot is not mutually exclusive Eaglefly. Both statements convey the same message... Ie. I'm an outsider, please don't drag be into your BS.

So understand that when I identify myself as not being "an East pilot" or as being "a Third-List pilot" that I am trying to avoid the typical East/West drama so that the discussion can remain more objective.

Does this make sense Eaglefly?

I can understand how you as a junior American pilot missed this, but I cannot understand why you do not gather more facts before making bold statements.

Shakespeare said that "The better part of Valour, is Discretion..."

I believe that APC is a place where aviation enthusiasts share ideas and information. There is a lot to learn from clues in this forum. So, with that said. Let's elevate the discussion.

 

No, this makes no sense whatsoever and you sound like Bill Clinton discussing Monica Lewinsky ("I DID NOT have sex with that woman !). It is the cop out of the decade on this forum and to claim your illogical "facts" are relevant to issues that ONLY depend on what seniority list you reside on and nothing else is nonsense. It also is exactly the same type of evasive psychobabble USAPA uses, so I can see why you rationalize and defend their actions with such zeal. There are only East pilots and West pilots and how are they have been defined and WILL be defined is by which of TWO (not three) seniority lists exist at US Airways.

You are an EAST PILOT period and when it comes to Nicolau issues you are an EAST PILOT period. To argue with West pilots and claim you are not is absurd. If you are a separate (non-East pilot), you and the other 600 pilots who were hired after X date should demand to be a separate third seniority list. The one immutable fact about the Nicolau conflict at your carrier and the SLI bringing our two carriers together is that pilots are defined by which of THREE seniority lists they presently exist on (East, West and AA) and if you come here to discuss/debate issues, your situation ONLY depends on which of three places you exist, NOT on "social networks" or beer drinking clubs. There are a lot of "demographics" here at AA, natives (street hires), acquired pilots like Reno. TWA and finally flow-thru's. To use your demented logic, those who aren't street-hires should proclaim themselves not to be AA pilots. Again, if you exist on the East pilots seniority list, are represented by USAPA, you ARE an "East pilot" and you DO have a dog in all these fights (on one post you claimed you didn't, which is complete cluelessness).

I knew you'd try to rationalize this ridiculousness just like you're doing with USAPA's MOU actions (which seems to be your primary focus here) and so it's of no surprise. For someone who now claims NOT to be an East pilot and have [laughter] "no dog in this fight" when talking about the Nicolau, why do you spend virtually all of your time defending their (not yours, of course) union ? Fine, if you want to claim you're not deliberately misrepresenting yourself, we'll switch that to a realization for everyone here that you are in denial of who you are and exist in a fantasy world. AFAIC though, you're credibility is still shot.

 

Allow me to break down what he was trying to say, or should have said.

1. Us 3rd listers (the majority of us at least) don't care for USAPA. Hell I can barely get an email answered. Maybe I should start putting DOH in the subject line.

2. West crews have always been super nice to us 3rd listers. I used to commute on west metal all the time before moving to base. All laid back nice guys that understand we are neutral.

3. We want the SLI to be over with. We know we are all below every east and west guy so it doesn't make a difference to us what happens.

4. Texaspilot on here gives us a bad name with his views thinking the AA list should be reordered and other nonsense. Most of us our level headed and just want to integrate and be done with. All of us hired after last spring know we go to the bottom. Enough said.

5. Yes technically we are east. And new hires that just started going to PHX are west. Just a technicality . Like a man that had a sex change operation

 

Hey, I understand all that, but you do reside on the East seniority list and you are represented by USAPA. If that is true and to claim you "aren't an East pilot", doesn't fly. My point is that if you're going to debate issues with west or AA pilots here regarding anything to do with SLI, to infer you don't exist in one of the only three places that matters, is misrepresentation. Remember, my first statement about this was that 44 said he "wasn't an East pilot". He said that wasn't true. That is EXACTLY what he said, so my statement is true. Now he's deflecting that by rationalizing why HE thinks he isn't an East pilot, not why he's trying to convince OTHERS he isn't. Putting aside his semantics, I have problems with APA and many TWA pilots might not see THEMSELVES as AA pilots, but if we came on this forum to attack USAPA, for any of us to creatively slice and dice our personal psychology as to how we see ourselves and reconstitute it here by claiming we aren't AA pilots so as to deflect rebuttal, i.e., "I am neutral" would either be denial or misrepresentation.

In his case, I'm willing to change my mind to denial. Based on his last post, I'll accept he wasn't deliberately misrepresenting anything as he apparently believes what he's convinced himself of and that he simply is in denial of both exactly who he is relative to the issues at hand and the tactics he's using to help present himself as something other then what he really is (USAPA would be proud of these tactics, I'm sure). In other words, I've dropped my belief he's a "liar" and have switched to simply "nuts".

 

No, you're wrong. I know this will fall on deaf ears because you're obviously a subject matter expert and USAPA has personally wronged you (by the way you post). No one will be able to change your mind on this, but here goes.

Third-Listers DO NOT reside on the East seniority list. That list stopped in 2005. Third-Listers are arranged by DATE OF HIRE behind all pre-merger US Airways and America West pilots. The new hires that are going to PHX are not automatically West pilots. They're Third-List pilots. They're arranged by Date of Hire with other Third-List pilots.

There are a vast majority of Third-Listers (me included) that are very unhappy with USAPA representation. We know where we stand in all of this. We just want this to get finished.

However, I'm sure I've just wasted my time typing to you. You're right. I'm wrong. You know anything and everything about US Airways.

I have been curious. How has USAPA personally (and I'm not talking about how the industry sees USAPA) hurt you? They obviously have in a very bad way because you have almost as big of an axe to grind as WD and Cacti.