Nic ...
09-20-2014, 03:32 PM
#472
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by cactiboss
You guys or on crack if you think the aa merger committee will give an opinion on how the east/west are ordered. I bet you they will remain "neutral" on that question
Even if EF ran to GH and begged to merge the E & W lists, it would not be permitted per the standing contracts. Those pesky contract terms.
09-20-2014, 04:01 PM
#474
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Joined APC: Jan 2013
Posts: 203
Originally Posted by GrapeNuts
Pre-merger career expectations of the west and east prior to the merger... What do you think that is? I would say that involves the Nicolau award, there wasn't going to be another arbitration otherwise.
09-20-2014, 04:15 PM
#475
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,240
Originally Posted by algflyr
But how long would that have taken? How many more years? Absent this merger with AA, I think that would have happened eventually once the retirements eventually evened out the numbers of each group. But a lot of West pilots would have retired and/or left the company by then as well. That's one of the issues. The TA was written so either side could prevent implementation by not voting in a new JCBA that would trigger implementation. To try and use it now is taking that failsafe away that was built into the TA. It's essentially saying the East voted it in, when they did not.
09-20-2014, 04:54 PM
#476
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: Reclined
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by algflyr
But how long would that have taken? How many more years? Absent this merger with AA, I think that would have happened eventually once the retirements eventually evened out the numbers of each group. But a lot of West pilots would have retired and/or left the company by then as well. That's one of the issues. The TA was written so either side could prevent implementation by not voting in a new JCBA that would trigger implementation. To try and use it now is taking that failsafe away that was built into the TA. It's essentially saying the East voted it in, when they did not.
This may not be popular with my west brothers and sisters but I will admit that the Nic is probably not going to be used in its unaltered form. That greatly disappoints me. None of us created the award. We, through our elected reps, agreed to let this guy decide what was to be. We argued a method just as the east did. Nicolau decided. Why the east never asked him to revisit the award if they felt it was inappropriate is beyond me. Hell he even went on to state that he would continue to have authority over that determination. Anyhow my point is; I do believe that the arbitrators will look at the current Nic and adjust it for existing equities. How that will be done is far beyond my pea-brain capabilities...
09-20-2014, 05:14 PM
#477
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Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by cactiboss
Irrelevant, forget the Nic for a second, when was usairways a single airline under single corporate control? That is where the arbitrators will start from if they follow the ual/cal award reasoning.
Some of you West guys are fixated on implicit assumptions.
You guys think you know what an arbitration panel will do, even though it is not certain that an arbitration panel will ever even be granted authority over the SLI... but even assuming it will be arbitrated, it is not certain who will participate nor is it certain what extent of the SLI question(s) will actually be granted to them.
When ever you use the word "if", just remember that is when your "implicit assumption" starts and "contingencies" begin... just like when the 9th schooled you guys on "implicit assumptions" and "contingencies".
Don't spend all your "righteous damages" just yet.
09-21-2014, 07:36 AM
#478
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by GrapeNuts
Pre-merger career expectations of the west and east prior to the merger... What do you think that is? I would say that involves the Nicolau award, there wasn't going to be another arbitration otherwise. Unless, you have some sort of inside EF info here, I do not know. But it you want to go down the "career expectation" path, the 1.5 billion you cited was after the snapshot date, not before. You need to keep things relevant, which on here is sometimes hard because this a message board based on opinions.
That said, wading through your verbiage above I only got out of it one argument: The Nicolau is dated therefore it cannot be used because AA is now in the picture. Again, that is quite a stretch to disregard it with just that kind of thinking because clearly the west can agree that it has already occurred and therefore cannot be undone. The onus is on the east to explain why an east/ west seniority list which has already been accepted by the company should not be used. You and your east friends can declare the Nic dead, if I had a quarter for every time an east pilot said that I would be retired by now. But if that is the best you have then I will rest pretty well, if the west gets a seat at the table.
That said, wading through your verbiage above I only got out of it one argument: The Nicolau is dated therefore it cannot be used because AA is now in the picture. Again, that is quite a stretch to disregard it with just that kind of thinking because clearly the west can agree that it has already occurred and therefore cannot be undone. The onus is on the east to explain why an east/ west seniority list which has already been accepted by the company should not be used. You and your east friends can declare the Nic dead, if I had a quarter for every time an east pilot said that I would be retired by now. But if that is the best you have then I will rest pretty well, if the west gets a seat at the table.
I'm not speaking for my "friends" in the East's position on the Nic and never have. Yes, THEY don't want it used, but I've never said that and in fact, have said closer to the opposite with the West getting a fair shot at arguing for it and an opportunity to do so. What I've also said though is I don't THINK it will be used and I've also said I don't CARE if it is. Those are just MY personal opinions. My belief also is that if it should be, a more complicated SLI would result with mitigators like fences which would be included to offset its negative impact on AA pilots.
If the West committee doesn't get a seat at the arbitration table, then for all intents and purposes, the Nic is dead. The West may then sue someone for DFR, but that wont change a final Nicless ISL, only obtain damages if successful. The arbitrators are off-limits, USAPA will be long broke be then (5-7 years) and that leaves APA, who considering they threw that question in the laps of arbitrators, aren't likely to lose. Again, personally, I have no problem with a West committee nor arbitral consideration of the Nic.
09-21-2014, 07:48 AM
#479
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by cactiboss
Irrelevant, forget the Nic for a second, when was usairways a single airline under single corporate control? That is where the arbitrators will start from if they follow the ual/cal award reasoning.
Only the arbitrators can decide that.
09-21-2014, 07:49 AM
#480
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Xanderman
This may not be popular with my west brothers and sisters but I will admit that the Nic is probably not going to be used in its unaltered form. That greatly disappoints me. None of us created the award. We, through our elected reps, agreed to let this guy decide what was to be. We argued a method just as the east did. Nicolau decided. Why the east never asked him to revisit the award if they felt it was inappropriate is beyond me. Hell he even went on to state that he would continue to have authority over that determination. Anyhow my point is; I do believe that the arbitrators will look at the current Nic and adjust it for existing equities. How that will be done is far beyond my pea-brain capabilities...
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