Latest AA contract proposal
12-24-2014 | 10:10 AM
#31
Banned
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 442
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From: A320 F/O
There are some objections on certain language for various company proposals.
One is the midnight sim session. It's my understanding that the reason being, is it basically becomes a CQT event (or PC) to do three landings. AA apparently is still using the old PC standard, pass/fail. I agree with the union's stance, coming from their POV.
First I think it's important that the sim session be made the most of, because, if someone hasn't flown enough to land 3 times in 90 days, they aren't very proficient. I think it's in the pilots and companies' best interest that that session is done as a training event, for safety's sake.
However, it's pretty obvious that doing it at 3am in the morning, the student isn't going to get hardly anything out of it. I understand why the company wants it, but I think they want it for the wrong reasons.
If the company wants to have mid night sim sessions, why not make the midnight sim session simply a 3 t/o and 3 landings event, not a pass/fail event. If they want to use it as a training event, stick to normal training schedules.
I would think that would alleviate most everyone's concerns with that.
Just one example, I would think/hope we could come to an eye-to-eye if we sharpened our pencils.
One is the midnight sim session. It's my understanding that the reason being, is it basically becomes a CQT event (or PC) to do three landings. AA apparently is still using the old PC standard, pass/fail. I agree with the union's stance, coming from their POV.
First I think it's important that the sim session be made the most of, because, if someone hasn't flown enough to land 3 times in 90 days, they aren't very proficient. I think it's in the pilots and companies' best interest that that session is done as a training event, for safety's sake.
However, it's pretty obvious that doing it at 3am in the morning, the student isn't going to get hardly anything out of it. I understand why the company wants it, but I think they want it for the wrong reasons.
If the company wants to have mid night sim sessions, why not make the midnight sim session simply a 3 t/o and 3 landings event, not a pass/fail event. If they want to use it as a training event, stick to normal training schedules.
I would think that would alleviate most everyone's concerns with that.
Just one example, I would think/hope we could come to an eye-to-eye if we sharpened our pencils.
12-24-2014 | 11:12 AM
#32
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 47
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Saabs, Purple, Whisky et al:
I agree we should negotiate as much as we can and that the Jan. 3 deadline is a scare tactic, but isn't there a false sense of gain in the whole 'I'm fine with the greenbook' argument?
I agree that now is not the time for concessions, but we can't act as if arbitration is a victory. It equates to a loss of a good deal of money for every pilot on the list and what the greenbook maintains simply isn't that good. If we had the vaunted 'Delta work rules' in the greenbook that would be one thing, but it seems to me we have a choice here of 'crummy work rules with a small raise' or 'crummy work rules with a bigger raise.' Whether or not this was the company outmaneuvering us in negotiations can be argued, but it is the current reality. The losses from the Company's offer (HBT, combined intl/dom and midnight sims) don't seem to outweigh the financial gain for every pilot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
I agree we should negotiate as much as we can and that the Jan. 3 deadline is a scare tactic, but isn't there a false sense of gain in the whole 'I'm fine with the greenbook' argument?
I agree that now is not the time for concessions, but we can't act as if arbitration is a victory. It equates to a loss of a good deal of money for every pilot on the list and what the greenbook maintains simply isn't that good. If we had the vaunted 'Delta work rules' in the greenbook that would be one thing, but it seems to me we have a choice here of 'crummy work rules with a small raise' or 'crummy work rules with a bigger raise.' Whether or not this was the company outmaneuvering us in negotiations can be argued, but it is the current reality. The losses from the Company's offer (HBT, combined intl/dom and midnight sims) don't seem to outweigh the financial gain for every pilot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
12-24-2014 | 12:41 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,450
Likes: 0
From: Airbus button pusher
Saabs, Purple, Whisky et al:
I agree we should negotiate as much as we can and that the Jan. 3 deadline is a scare tactic, but isn't there a false sense of gain in the whole 'I'm fine with the greenbook' argument?
I agree that now is not the time for concessions, but we can't act as if arbitration is a victory. It equates to a loss of a good deal of money for every pilot on the list and what the greenbook maintains simply isn't that good. If we had the vaunted 'Delta work rules' in the greenbook that would be one thing, but it seems to me we have a choice here of 'crummy work rules with a small raise' or 'crummy work rules with a bigger raise.' Whether or not this was the company outmaneuvering us in negotiations can be argued, but it is the current reality. The losses from the Company's offer (HBT, combined intl/dom and midnight sims) don't seem to outweigh the financial gain for every pilot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
I agree we should negotiate as much as we can and that the Jan. 3 deadline is a scare tactic, but isn't there a false sense of gain in the whole 'I'm fine with the greenbook' argument?
I agree that now is not the time for concessions, but we can't act as if arbitration is a victory. It equates to a loss of a good deal of money for every pilot on the list and what the greenbook maintains simply isn't that good. If we had the vaunted 'Delta work rules' in the greenbook that would be one thing, but it seems to me we have a choice here of 'crummy work rules with a small raise' or 'crummy work rules with a bigger raise.' Whether or not this was the company outmaneuvering us in negotiations can be argued, but it is the current reality. The losses from the Company's offer (HBT, combined intl/dom and midnight sims) don't seem to outweigh the financial gain for every pilot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Sorry to be so grumpy, but my 33 hour layover meaning I'm not getting paid today makes me extra grumpy!!!
12-24-2014 | 01:33 PM
#35
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Joined: Jun 2012
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12-24-2014 | 01:56 PM
#36
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Right Seat
The problem with sending it out to a vote is the average line pilot is fairly uninformed on what can or will happen either way.
The BOD is educated (or should be) and fully understands the ramifications of a yes/no nod.
Personally, I would much rather a very well educated limited group made up of our group demographic make this decision than 13,000 uneducated people (ie FAs voting "No" just to show they were unhappy, even though they wanted it).
From what the APA has already shown, they don't intend to sell anyone out.
However I have a hunch that come the next contract cycle, these same things will be on the table as company "must haves". Just something to think about. Personally, I'm happy if the BOD is happy and they feel they have extracted every penny of value that they can.
But what I DON'T want to happen, is taking our marbles and storming out, throwing a tantrum like a 3 year old.
The BOD is educated (or should be) and fully understands the ramifications of a yes/no nod.
Personally, I would much rather a very well educated limited group made up of our group demographic make this decision than 13,000 uneducated people (ie FAs voting "No" just to show they were unhappy, even though they wanted it).
From what the APA has already shown, they don't intend to sell anyone out.
However I have a hunch that come the next contract cycle, these same things will be on the table as company "must haves". Just something to think about. Personally, I'm happy if the BOD is happy and they feel they have extracted every penny of value that they can.
But what I DON'T want to happen, is taking our marbles and storming out, throwing a tantrum like a 3 year old.
Put it out to vote, and do it before January 3!
12-24-2014 | 02:24 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Likes: 0
Saabs, Purple, Whisky et al:
I agree we should negotiate as much as we can and that the Jan. 3 deadline is a scare tactic, but isn't there a false sense of gain in the whole 'I'm fine with the greenbook' argument?
I agree that now is not the time for concessions, but we can't act as if arbitration is a victory. It equates to a loss of a good deal of money for every pilot on the list and what the greenbook maintains simply isn't that good. If we had the vaunted 'Delta work rules' in the greenbook that would be one thing, but it seems to me we have a choice here of 'crummy work rules with a small raise' or 'crummy work rules with a bigger raise.' Whether or not this was the company outmaneuvering us in negotiations can be argued, but it is the current reality. The losses from the Company's offer (HBT, combined intl/dom and midnight sims) don't seem to outweigh the financial gain for every pilot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
I agree we should negotiate as much as we can and that the Jan. 3 deadline is a scare tactic, but isn't there a false sense of gain in the whole 'I'm fine with the greenbook' argument?
I agree that now is not the time for concessions, but we can't act as if arbitration is a victory. It equates to a loss of a good deal of money for every pilot on the list and what the greenbook maintains simply isn't that good. If we had the vaunted 'Delta work rules' in the greenbook that would be one thing, but it seems to me we have a choice here of 'crummy work rules with a small raise' or 'crummy work rules with a bigger raise.' Whether or not this was the company outmaneuvering us in negotiations can be argued, but it is the current reality. The losses from the Company's offer (HBT, combined intl/dom and midnight sims) don't seem to outweigh the financial gain for every pilot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
We have caught him in numerous lies and half truths. There is nothing special at all about Jan 3rd... He will always need to buy the industry standard concessions that he is offering to buy.. That is until we sell them. Arbitration is meaningless in the sale of those concessions, except to the extent it is used as a scare tactic and delay to the actual settlement he needs to be on even footing with Delta.
Sooner or later we will come to an agreement, inspite of Doug's dogs of war.
12-24-2014 | 02:38 PM
#39
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Zero chance of that. I know you desperately want the $$$ and couldn't care less about anything else, but calmer heads are evaluating all the aspects of the present situation to make whatever decision they deem best. It's good $$$ hungry "gimme-nows" aren't in control.
12-24-2014 | 02:45 PM
#40
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,450
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From: Airbus button pusher
Good post WD.
I think people don't realize that we have the option to retain all current work rules in arbitration by keeping the green book.
I'm in my mid thirties so I have a few years left here. You rarely get things back once you give them up, so let's make it worth while.
International/domestic split given up for calendar day? Yeah that might be worth thinking about.
I'm on a 4 day right now. It's worth 17 hours, at other carriers it would be worth at minimum just under 21 hours.
This airline has too many red eyes to not have calendar day pay. And to yes voters, yes I know we won't get calendar pay in arbitration.
I believe both sides want a deal. Jan 3 deadline for the retro pay? I can live without it. That's a scare tactic. They want things from us. Does anyone really think they want a domestic and international little bus division? There is some leverage, am so think the deal will sweeten.
The overnight sim thing ? I don't do international wide body so I don't know much about it, but I'll listen to APA on it. Someone keeps brining up how it is a big deal with the 787 coming online. So let's not just give it up without proper research or compensation.
Attacks get personal on here and they shouldn't. I just want people to take a step back and realize this contract will echoe for the rest or their careers and those behind them. Let's not be blinded by pay rates a year early. We have some leverage and don't even know what the APA has in store yet. Their press release yesterday didn't show their cards at all.
Everyone here knows we aren't going to get deltas current compensation let alone their new contracts. To the yes voters compensation is different than pay rates.
It's not over yet, not even by a mile. But in the end, I am ok with the green book and prepared for it.
I think people don't realize that we have the option to retain all current work rules in arbitration by keeping the green book.
I'm in my mid thirties so I have a few years left here. You rarely get things back once you give them up, so let's make it worth while.
International/domestic split given up for calendar day? Yeah that might be worth thinking about.
I'm on a 4 day right now. It's worth 17 hours, at other carriers it would be worth at minimum just under 21 hours.
This airline has too many red eyes to not have calendar day pay. And to yes voters, yes I know we won't get calendar pay in arbitration.
I believe both sides want a deal. Jan 3 deadline for the retro pay? I can live without it. That's a scare tactic. They want things from us. Does anyone really think they want a domestic and international little bus division? There is some leverage, am so think the deal will sweeten.
The overnight sim thing ? I don't do international wide body so I don't know much about it, but I'll listen to APA on it. Someone keeps brining up how it is a big deal with the 787 coming online. So let's not just give it up without proper research or compensation.
Attacks get personal on here and they shouldn't. I just want people to take a step back and realize this contract will echoe for the rest or their careers and those behind them. Let's not be blinded by pay rates a year early. We have some leverage and don't even know what the APA has in store yet. Their press release yesterday didn't show their cards at all.
Everyone here knows we aren't going to get deltas current compensation let alone their new contracts. To the yes voters compensation is different than pay rates.
It's not over yet, not even by a mile. But in the end, I am ok with the green book and prepared for it.
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