Not sure what your background is prior to coming here but i'm guessing maybe military? Either you have very little airline experience or are very naive. I don't mean to sound insulting but I'll give you some advice for the future. The company WILL use vague contractual language to a$$ rape you at every opportunity. If they CAN do something, they WILL, and it will NEVER be to your benefit.

 

Your absolutely right min calendar pay would fix that. Right now it's not looking like we are close to getting it. So if you want to have a future doing international flying, you need to vote no. Thanks for pointing this out!

 

Nooooope texaspilot said dougie and Co is giving us money because they know it's the right thing to do! Trust management!!

 

At Delta a four day is worth minimum 21:00 @ 5:15/day.

 

Yeah, I did come from the military. And as much b*tching as I hear, this job is actually pretty damn good.

Where I came from, we deployed to crappy places like Afghanistan, Iraq, Kuwait...the list goes on. We got to sleep in dorm rooms with 4 dudes in it. One of those dorms was across from a landmark known as the "poo pond". I had a rocket land 25 feet from my room, failed to detonate and bounced over the concrete wall and exploded on the other side.

Flying involved showing up to fly in 120 degree heat wearing ballistic vests, helmets, gloves, etc. Flew 18 hour duty days, landed at sunrise after flying all night on NVGs and then got to go do "camp clean up" since technically we weren't "working" anymore...got to listen to the non-flying office workers complain that we smelled...probably because my flight suit had been drenched in sweat for the better part of 16 hours. Finally got to go to sleep after being awake for nearly 24 hours. Got hour 12 hours of rest and then went back out the door for another 16-18 hours of bouncing around various sh*tholes. On top of that, we got to deal with all the other office and various other military queep.

I spent a total of about 3 years deployed, flying those schedules. We'd come home for 4-6 months, and spend 2-3 months of that time TDY to attend various schools or attend exercises...so we really didn't get to spend a whole lot of time with momma and the kids. Two of those deployments involved a 365-day stint flying with Iraqis crews that constantly tried to find new ways of killing you in an airplane, and another was a 7-monther where I flew half the time and spent the other half walking around Afghanistan with a 9mm trying to recover wrecked aircraft.

I'll edit to add that I spent a number of years teaching at the schoolhouse too. That was a "good deal" assignment because you typically didn't deploy (much). But that involved flying 4 times a week, and as the new guy I got stuck flying nights for nearly a year. Teaching kids with 200 hours total time flying on NVGs, showing up at 4pm and going home at 4am, and waking up at noon to do it over again. Day 5 (we couldn't fly 5 nights in a row, that was unsafe) was spent teaching ground school. By the weekend, I was beat up and didn't have energy to do much. Flying days was better but was pretty much the same...we had to show up at 5am and I usually left to go home around 5pm. All of our sorties were 5 hours with students in the seat flying at 300' in formation. You were often worn out.

We sat alpha alert sometimes. That's one hour from the call to wheels up. We had leadership who would have slide shows to the commanders showing how often our alphas were late for takeoff, and as the aircraft commander we had to explain why. We often sat bravo alert, which was a hard 2 hours from the call to show time. Very rarely did we ever get charlie alert, which would be called "long call" around here.

When I went through my last military initial qual course, all my sims were at midnight or 2 am...for 4 months in a row. Sometimes our annual CRM sims (military version of CQT) would be at midnight as well. And back then I was a captain making about $75-80,000 a year. Now we've got a political climate where military retirement may go away, and they are already cutting military pay and benefits right and left (or trying to).

Then I come here and guys are making double what I made in the military, working half the time and complaining about midnight currency sims and haggling over callout times.

I'm certainly not a company man, and I think corporate leadership in this country is lacking...they are typically all about the money for the most part. I would certainly object to any language I thought was onerous for sure. But I think it's a little ridiculous to talk to me as if I came from the land of rainbows and unicorns and have to learn how to really roll up my sleeves now that I'm at an airline.

The only thing about this job that sucks so far is commuting, and I do that to myself.

** I wanted to add that this isn't meant to bust anyone's chops over the military vs airline thing. I think I just wanted to point out that despite the arguments about what's best for the airline in these negotiations/arbitration, we've actually got it pretty good. Pilots love to b!tch, I know that as a fact. But I think about what I was doing and what I'm doing now and I feel lucky.

 

Min credit day is reason enough not to vote for this. I could really use the money but it blows my mind that the largest legacy in the country producing the most profits doesn't have it. Heck... My cheap LCC had 5hr min day. I guess everyone here has no issues working 18-20 days a month.

Also what's the deal with the squeeze? Let's stop letting them negotiate with the membership and let our BOD do their job.

 

Min calendar day would be great. But I don't see us getting that in arbitration, and at this point I don't see the company budging on it before the end of February.

 

No problem... I'm patient I'd rather go through arb with the greenbook sacrificing no work rules and take my pay in 2016. Will it be less than what is currently offered? Yes, but I think we are underestimating the qol and costs associated with them. I think we all need to let the BOD/NC do their DD and pass their opinion of the offer. Currently the membership is too emotionally invested ($$$$) to see the true pros/cons/ valuations.

This is a big vote.. We should all be asking ourselves why the company is giving us no time to road show it etc like the F/A. It's a tactic right out of Glass's play book.

 

Management is always going to try to squeeze the vote, regardless. It's not just Glass's play book, it's negotiating 101. Car dealers use it all the time.

That being said, some people may be blinded by money and that's all they see. But some of us have tried to objectively look at the overall picture and make a judgment call. Much of what I use to make up my mind has actually come from APA's own discussions about the various issues. I just think based on history that there are some hardliners (namely the LUS-East guys) on the BOD that will probably stiff-arm nearly any company proposal and they resent *anything* the company is asking for regardless of what it's worth, what they are willing to give for it, or how it impacts us.

And the fact we have cost-neutral binding arbitration plays no small role in some people's thought processes. Do we take the money and keep most of the Green Book in place? Or do we keep all of the Green Book in place for substantially less? That's essentially where we are at now.

For the record, I've now heard people claim that flight ops will suddenly turn into a medieval house of horrors with continuous, non-stop beatings upon late pilots. Why? No one can really explain why management would do that other than "because".

I've read how midnight currency sims will suddenly turn into full-blown OTD/CLO sims complete with check rides with a check airman. Why? "Because".

I've read how the loss of perhaps 200-300 jobs (APA's number) by combining divisions will result in new guys like me being displaced to the E190 and swinging gear on that airplane for 15 years, with little or no hope of ever becoming captain. Nevermind that in 15 years, 2/3s of the seniority list will be gone...according to them, I'm still going to be a lowly narrow-body FO with this change implemented.

I've read that removing HBT language means that most of Europe will now be flown by 2-pilot crews. Nevermind that most of that flying is 8-9 hours of block time, which runs right up against the maximum flight time limits...a simple airborne delay requiring a holding pattern will now make that entire operation illegal. But people think the company will do it. Nevermind that UA and DL did away with HBT but still fly nearly all Europe flights with 3 pilots...why? Because with 3 pilots there's never a question of legality. But some people here are convinced the company will do that, "because they can".

I've even read many state that the extra year tacked onto the contract is a no-go for them because it's "an extra year for free". Nevermind the 3% pay raise, or the fact that Parker/Kirby are under no requirements to have a new contract in place by then.

Anyways...those are *my* thoughts on the issues. It's easy to get bent out of shape and assume the worst about everything. But much of the language in this deal is essentially the same language LUS-East currently has, and it's not all cats-and-dogs-living-together and brimstone over here. Just something to consider. And FWIW, I'm fully prepared to exist off of the MTA pay...I'm not desperate.

 

hueypilot.

I do appreciate your service and the sacrifices you and others have made, my hat is off to you.

However Doug is not uncle Sam, and we are not defending freedom, we are here to make a buc. Doug is here to make millions, he and his cut throat bean counters WILL take every penny they can from all. Why you ask, because its their job! They don't care about you any further than if you are well enough to move a plane. They count on you and your integrity to make sacrifices to make sure their bonuses keep on rolling in. You are a fool to apply your integrity and honor to management, they don't have any!
You posted the CPO has better things to do than watch your check in time. In case you forgot, or were not here, about 5 years or so ago they did just that. They used Map quest or similar to plot pilots locations to verify they were withing the 90. So yes they can, will and have done exactly what you say they wont.
If the language they want is "essentially the same" as current then why change it? That question alone should raise your eyebrows.
A contract is so much more than an hourly wage, sure we will make an extra nickel, but I guarantee we will pay for that raise with other parts of the contract. That is how management especially this group does business. If we get an extra 5K per year, that will be paid for with 5k in concessions in other parts.
As far as I am concerned, I am tired of playing directly into the hand of management. They use the exact same play book every single time and yet so many never see it