And so.... If we can't even engage in self help, how much less effective is it to appear in front of management with a weak association that has very little political pull, instead of a much more powerful union that has a lot more.

Also. Can it be just coincidence that ual and dal continue to blow us away with just about every contract the past 20 years?

APA is a broken association. Time to change it up. ALPA is probably not the perfect solution but at this rate I'm ready to give it a try.

 

The only political pull that will ever change this hopelessly broken, corrupt and incestuous game is the actual ability to engage in self-help. That no longer exists (except also as another myth on paper) and so regardless of who is playing the same game....



That...

 

Management doesn't lie awake at night worried about a united pilot front. We were united (for the most part) for a very brief time in the past and either a phone call or more likely a certified letter was sent to the Fort and a robocall un-united us instantly.

They have all the weapons and leverage and we have none. ALPA will not and cannot change that. Delta pilots have what that have in large part because their management team recognizes the value of their pilots. We and UAL do not because of management teams with antagonistic philosophies toward their pilots and UAL pilots are ALPA and in a frustratingly similar situation as us.

 

UAL doesn't blow us away by any means. ALPA is a political animal all right, but for their interests sbove their dues source's interests. They're great safety advocates, but marginal collective bargaining agents and if one questions their ethics or lack therof, talk to a few former TWA pilots to clear that up.

 

Eagle fly... The ual contract blows ours out of the water. with the exception of their reserve rules, their contract is superior to ours in just about every area. Check your facts man!

Check with your ual buds and ask them their insurance premiums.
Ask them about their premium pay (200%)
Ask them about double dipping when displaced for training
Ask them about their hotel language
Etc, etc.

Bottom line... ALPA has done a much better job for ual/dal contractually wise. Good management or not - the bottom line is that the company would much rather face a small independent association with very little political pull. That alone is more than enough reason to give alpa a try. Even fedex recognized that and went back to ALPA after their in house union turned out to be a joke. Same with USAPA... Same with APA. Why do you think AA pilots were only allowed to strike for 30 minutes in 1997 when NWA was allowed to strike an entire month one year later. I guarantee you it wasn't because Clinton was buddy buddy with the NWA pilot group.

In the end, you're right that we don't have the leverage and we get easily neutered. Therefore, what better reason to have strength in numbers and be part of a strong union with a lot of political pull! Instead of a small independent association that management laughs at every instance they can. the proof is in the substandard contracts we've had while dal/ual have blown us away consistently.

A united pilot front... and one powerful union representing all legacy airline pilot groups... is management's WORST nightmare. The more we can stack our cards in that favor, the better off this profession will be.

 

Wow, this all flies in direct opposition to what a couple of pilots I know at UAL say and that is things there aren't good. The company has been effectively stonewalling them and ALPA has been minimally effective and also mired in some internal conflict. I just checked the latest info on the core items like pay and that was dated 11/30/2015 and it shows UAL 737-8 12/ year hourly scale @ $211 and F/O @ 144. 75 hour guarantee, 16% 401(k) and the reserve system there is very bad (a lot of talk over on the UAL thread on how managements offered (AIP) agreed to by ALPA leaves reserve untouched among other deficiencies). Some of the soft things you mention I don't think in any way propel the UAL contract to the point of "blowing ours out of the water", but perhaps it would be helpful if you could list specifics of items of comparison to see where these supposedly HUGE differences on major core items lie.

I don't see ALPA strong-arming UAL management anywhere or placing them in knee-knocking fear and the pilots I talk to give quite the opposite impression. Just a larger, more expensive version of APA from what I've heard. I DO know for a fact that ALPA has essentially thrown the regional pilots they represent under the bus and especially Envoy and evidenced by Lee Moak's letter to them of a couple of years ago that told them in no uncertain terms to essentially not rock the boat and accept marginal compensation.

It sounds like we live on different planets.

 

Maybe we do. I listed those items at ual that are far better than our contract here and those were just some items. Hotels, medical, premium, double-dipping during training displacement. I also forgot they get profit sharing too. 5hr calendar day as well. Again the only exceptions are reserve and their pay rates...but the pay rates will surely surpass ours so I didn't include them.

Their contract is not as good as delta but not too far off. with those items I listed above, that's enough to blow ours out of the water. When I tell my ual buds about our contract, they can't believe all the stuff missing that they thought we had.

I don't debate the point that ALPA does not represent regional airlines well but neither does APA or any Union for that matter. I totally get your bias against ALPA due to your time at AE but regional ALPA and legacy ALPA are two completely different animals.

Bottom line is that ALPA-represented legacy airlines have almost always achieved better contracts than our APA-represented airline. That fact is undeniable. That's a good enough reason for me to rejoin.

 

I'd be willing to go back to ALPA (holding my nose) if I thought it would matter, but I see it as closing the barn door after the horse has already left. Our next section 6 situation is something I don't think ALPA can change. Let's look at the sobering realities, from my POV anyway;

- By that time, UAL pilots will likely have at least some type of interim contract that at the very least brings their pay up to approximate Delta's. Their contract overall will still trail. The argument then theoretically would be if they can do that there, they could do that here, yes ?

- Parker isn't the type of guy to give you one nickel more then he either has to or is feels it's a good investment. He proved that the last go when he dazzled us with near Delta pay rates, but diluted critical work rule provisions to recoup most of that outlay. We fell all over ourselves to grab the signing pen. Our CBA blows compared to Delta's and our rates still don't match theirs (to say nothing of the profit-sharing difference).

So where do we stand relative to that from a realistic perspective ?

Our section 6 openers will see us trailing both DAL and UAL pilots in virtually all areas including pay rates, Delta by a wide margin on non-pay rate aspects and UAL by a closer margin. Thus Parker will ALREADY have the cheapest pilots on the block from a competitive standpoint. From a competitive standpoint, Capital Hill doesn't give a rat's petunia about airline pilot compensation (unless it is played as an issue of safety a'la the regional airline Colgan situation) and thus the perceived political clout ALPA may have vs. APA is not a player, at least on economics.

That leaves just us to force any movement forward. Parker will already have the lowest pay scales, our scheduling section has just about been wrung dry with every conceivable thing Parker could want like PBS, no calendar day and combined divisions, our 401(k) is competitive our reserve more flexible than Delta's and potentially United's depending on whatever ALPA might wrestle free there in the interim, inferior LTD (grossly inferior to Delta's), by then a single health insurance plan (standard) that will have shifted out costs to near Obama levels and of course, none of the things you list which are already factors in Parker's favor.

What leverage do we have to demand return of all those things to approximate Delta or at least be grouped within Delta and United ?

He's just going to return all that was stripped from us (some of it by him) out of altruism or dare I say it, a concept of fairness ? You have observed this guy over the last couple of years, yes ? The closest thing to compare him to IMO is Pinocchio.

AFAIC, he will have no problem offering what he thinks is the minimum outlay to us (once again likely anchored by near Delta rates, but no profit-sharing) and he'll effectively market that so that outsiders in the media and politicians would once again consider us stupid for not accepting pay raises. Of course, also once again, there will be fine print that will bely that we are paying with what he will be willing to place in our right hand by taking some things already in our left hand. What's left to milk from a pilot group already tail-end Charlie's in the total compensation department ?

Perhaps further LTD erosion (probably more specific language neutering post 24 month payments), even more reserve flexibilities and of course the last golden egg not yet fully claimed - Scope. Specifically Group 1. He'll make his offer, concoct another deadline and sit back and talk to the press about how this is a fair, competitive offer that brings our rates up to approximate those of the competition and we'd be silly to turn down the pay raises he's offering. We could balk and then he's happily kick the can for years, perhaps many years making the shareholders happy with the cheapest pilots on the block. In fact, he'll probably kick the can awhile anyway (at least a couple of years) as why give money you don't have to too early and it's a good way to prep the playing field.

How can ALPA change this situation ?

I don't see how they can as we've already ****ed ourselves and they won't be able to un**** us. Considering that the median ages of our pilots will be even older then they are now by then and we will be not only even less risk averse, but even more individually centered (aggravated and rationalized by our even worse fragmentation by then) many will want to take whatever $$$ gains can be realized ASAP vs. playing hardball potentially past their retirement dates or at the very least well past the point of diminishing returns. My points are no revelation as Parker already knows this and more importantly knows US. ALPA cannot change "us" and therin is the problem. Jerry will have easier work next time around you can be sure of that, ALPA or no ALPA. He's no stranger to ALPA either.

Hey, if there something you can convince me of that I think will significant alter our future dynamics by adoption of ALPA, I'm all ears, but I have yet to hear that from anyone. Personally, I think even if he offers us MORE then we expect, but we have to let go of Group 1 to get it, I bet the majority of pilots here considering their ages, loss of retirement, etc. would sheepishly take it as Airlinii Pilotus is a well studied animal by management and their ringers that acts in a VERY predictable fashion. There would be pressure to put such an offer to vote, you can be sure of that.

Of course, after it passes, virtually everyone would say they voted against it which is ALSO one of the traits of the very predictable animal Airlinii Pilotus.

 

Good post EF.

The simple answer to your post needs to be answered with another question, one that we need to answer ourselves:

Given APA's track record... In 2020, how much more do we think Parker would walk over APA vs ALPA?

My answer to that is, quite a lot more. Parker knows that he's got APA in his pocket. ALPA, not so much: it would be an unknown to him. That right there convinces me it's worth a shot. **ANYTHING** that increases our chances of securing a United/delta style contract is worth pursuing. Along with all the other reasons I mentioned.

With APA, I already know and expect the type of things that will happen in 2020. I'm ready for a change.

 

I hear you, but WE are APA and the same "we" will be ALPA. I just think WE cannot change what WE have already done and where we already are. If WE had something more to negotiate with than scope, I'd agree we might be able to un**** ourselves, but I look around and don't see much of anything else. We gave too much away for pay rates that were supposed to bring us to Delta, but didn't. Parker already has everything else and the profits are rolling in even mired in mediocrity, so all is well and it appears they can live with that. I see a lot of apathy in the membership and a lot of division (which is about to O.D. on steroids next year) and feel like a member of the lost platoon at Ia Drang with the stark realization that we can only save ourselves.

If only we hadn't given away what little ammo we had.