ALPA
12-04-2015, 11:39 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Originally Posted by 450knotOffice
I agree with the premise that the organization name itself means little. It's the leadership and membership WITHIN the individual airline that makes the organization work or not.
There is thick irony in your continued labeling of those of us who are on the LAA as AArogant. Look in the mirror. I suppose the only thing that'll make you happy is if we all bow to the all encompassing superiority of everything USAirways, because if by God we disagree with your superior way of doing things, we must be AArogant.
How about we try to start thinking as one rather than two or three airlines.
There is thick irony in your continued labeling of those of us who are on the LAA as AArogant. Look in the mirror. I suppose the only thing that'll make you happy is if we all bow to the all encompassing superiority of everything USAirways, because if by God we disagree with your superior way of doing things, we must be AArogant.
How about we try to start thinking as one rather than two or three airlines.
We have 15,000 independent contractors. The majority vote for it, always. Embrace it and move on. It will always be this way.
02-22-2016, 12:21 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: E-190 Leftist
Posts: 300
To me, ALPA's resources far outweigh the arguments against joining. I understand a lot of the reservations; however this move would only be a benefit to the pilots. Yeah a lot of the same issues may still exist if we become ALPA, but we will have the best resources in the world for safety, negotiation, economics and financial analysis, security, lobbying, among other departments. With those improvements, as well as being in the driver's seat at ALPA national, as the largest pilot group represented there, we stand to gain much more than we would with APA.
That said, I am sympathetic to those of you who have deep seated hate for everything that is ALPA based on your experiences. There have been inexcusable mistakes made that harmed pilots' careers. I haven't had that experience and think it's important for us to look to the future, while we understand the past.
That said, I am sympathetic to those of you who have deep seated hate for everything that is ALPA based on your experiences. There have been inexcusable mistakes made that harmed pilots' careers. I haven't had that experience and think it's important for us to look to the future, while we understand the past.
02-22-2016, 01:13 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: E-190 Leftist
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by Route66
And another guy(or gal) on the other forum (where I occasionally lurk) posted this a few days ago. Seems (s)he thinks Agency fees (mandatory dues) will be going the way of the "dodo bird". How many gals/guys will be paying union dues next year if what (s)he posts is right? Where is the unions source of money going to come from then??? Heres the quote: (I'm just the messenger boy...)
02-22-2016, 02:27 PM
#54
Child of the Magenta
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Position: 737
Posts: 387
God, please, never. I don't want anything to do with ALPA, and I certainly don't want to pay twice as much in dues while ALPA somehow attempts to represent the interest of AA pilots *and* the regional pilots that they company would love to give our Category A (hell, probably B as well) aircraft to. Thanks, but NO THANKS.
I don't see any of the benefits that you are talking about with ALPA. If you don't like what's happening at APA, then run for office, change it. This is our union, it is what we make it.
I don't see any of the benefits that you are talking about with ALPA. If you don't like what's happening at APA, then run for office, change it. This is our union, it is what we make it.
02-22-2016, 02:35 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,108
Originally Posted by RedBaron007
To me, ALPA's resources far outweigh the arguments against joining. I understand a lot of the reservations; however this move would only be a benefit to the pilots. Yeah a lot of the same issues may still exist if we become ALPA, but we will have the best resources in the world for safety, negotiation, economics and financial analysis, security, lobbying, among other departments. With those improvements, as well as being in the driver's seat at ALPA national, as the largest pilot group represented there, we stand to gain much more than we would with APA.
That said, I am sympathetic to those of you who have deep seated hate for everything that is ALPA based on your experiences. There have been inexcusable mistakes made that harmed pilots' careers. I haven't had that experience and think it's important for us to look to the future, while we understand the past.
That said, I am sympathetic to those of you who have deep seated hate for everything that is ALPA based on your experiences. There have been inexcusable mistakes made that harmed pilots' careers. I haven't had that experience and think it's important for us to look to the future, while we understand the past.
ALPA president Tim Canoll works for management. When has he EVER talked about the Billions in wasted money on stock buy backs? When has he ever pointed our Delta exec's compensation is up over 900% since Chapter 11?
He and Lee Moak feel we have "good, mature contracts".
All these guys care about are themselves.
Where is Lee Moak?
02-22-2016, 05:25 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,214
"as the largest pilot group represented there, we stand to gain much more than we would with APA."
1. Do you think ALPA would push any APA agendas ahead of their long term members agendas?
2. Think being big gives you more influence? Read up on how, and why, APA split from ALPA.
1. Do you think ALPA would push any APA agendas ahead of their long term members agendas?
2. Think being big gives you more influence? Read up on how, and why, APA split from ALPA.
02-22-2016, 05:42 PM
#57
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Sliceback
"as the largest pilot group represented there, we stand to gain much more than we would with APA."
1. Do you think ALPA would push any APA agendas ahead of their long term members agendas?
2. Think being big gives you more influence? Read up on how, and why, APA split from ALPA.
1. Do you think ALPA would push any APA agendas ahead of their long term members agendas?
2. Think being big gives you more influence? Read up on how, and why, APA split from ALPA.
02-23-2016, 07:06 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
With the new threats facing the US pilot groups on the horizon (ME3), now is the time for ALL pilots groups to join ALPA and band together. The stronger ALPA is, the more effective they can fight what's headed our way.
Also, APA has a long history of sub standard contracts compared to the other two big dogs, UAL and DAL. We keep hoping next time will be different, only to be disappointed yet again. And yes, we have elected "strong leaders" who promised it would be different. But it never is. I want a union that will have the resources an assets to assist in delivering a dal/UAL-style contract.
APA will always be about protecting jobs at the expense of better work rules. That is why we will never get an ILC. It's in their DNA. That's why they agreed to B scales which started the downward spiral in our profession.
The reasons APA left ALPA back in 1963 all basically amounted to a personality conflict between Gene Seal (AAL MEC chairman) and Clancy Sayen, ALPA president. Please... That's what we're basing our refusal to join today... over 50 years later? Gee, ya think some stuff has maybe changed since then? Claiming that AA should not go back to ALPA due to events that happened back in 1963 is, well....very Sky-Naazish and accurately describes the AA Pilot mentality: if we did it that way in 1963, by golly it's the best way today.
In other words....heads buried in the sand while mumbling, our way is the best way.
ALPA will not magically fix our problems. But with the proof that DaL and UAL continuously spank us again and again every contract, we owe it to ourselves to explore this option. Do we really want to continue on with APA failing us again and again expecting different results? That's the definition of insanity I believe...
We've been trying to fix APA for decades now. Never works.
The membership drives the union. And if we switch back to ALPA, it is my belief that our membership will have a fresh start and be re-energized, ready to stand behind them. Currently, our membership is so split and disillusioned with APA that they have no will to fight.
Also, airline management absolutely LOVES dealing with independent in-house unions: they are always limited in how much they can get. Airline management would much rather face an independent in-house rather than a powerful national union that has the connections and support of thousands of airline pilots. That's a fact.
Finally - regional ALPA and legacy ALPA are two completely different animals. Legacy ALPA will always cater to those airlines before the regionals. That is why almost all regional ALPA pilots have a bad taste. Legacy ALPA's job is to ensure that the pinnacle of the airline piloting profession - an ILC at a legacy airline - is met first and foremost.
Regarding the argument that ALPA couldn't help financially troubled airline pilot groups - here's a newsflash: NO union could do that. None.
It's time to consider a switch.
I should have an article to post about the benefits of AAL ALPA membership in the next few days addressing these issues.
Also, APA has a long history of sub standard contracts compared to the other two big dogs, UAL and DAL. We keep hoping next time will be different, only to be disappointed yet again. And yes, we have elected "strong leaders" who promised it would be different. But it never is. I want a union that will have the resources an assets to assist in delivering a dal/UAL-style contract.
APA will always be about protecting jobs at the expense of better work rules. That is why we will never get an ILC. It's in their DNA. That's why they agreed to B scales which started the downward spiral in our profession.
The reasons APA left ALPA back in 1963 all basically amounted to a personality conflict between Gene Seal (AAL MEC chairman) and Clancy Sayen, ALPA president. Please... That's what we're basing our refusal to join today... over 50 years later? Gee, ya think some stuff has maybe changed since then? Claiming that AA should not go back to ALPA due to events that happened back in 1963 is, well....very Sky-Naazish and accurately describes the AA Pilot mentality: if we did it that way in 1963, by golly it's the best way today.
In other words....heads buried in the sand while mumbling, our way is the best way.
ALPA will not magically fix our problems. But with the proof that DaL and UAL continuously spank us again and again every contract, we owe it to ourselves to explore this option. Do we really want to continue on with APA failing us again and again expecting different results? That's the definition of insanity I believe...
We've been trying to fix APA for decades now. Never works.
The membership drives the union. And if we switch back to ALPA, it is my belief that our membership will have a fresh start and be re-energized, ready to stand behind them. Currently, our membership is so split and disillusioned with APA that they have no will to fight.
Also, airline management absolutely LOVES dealing with independent in-house unions: they are always limited in how much they can get. Airline management would much rather face an independent in-house rather than a powerful national union that has the connections and support of thousands of airline pilots. That's a fact.
Finally - regional ALPA and legacy ALPA are two completely different animals. Legacy ALPA will always cater to those airlines before the regionals. That is why almost all regional ALPA pilots have a bad taste. Legacy ALPA's job is to ensure that the pinnacle of the airline piloting profession - an ILC at a legacy airline - is met first and foremost.
Regarding the argument that ALPA couldn't help financially troubled airline pilot groups - here's a newsflash: NO union could do that. None.
It's time to consider a switch.
I should have an article to post about the benefits of AAL ALPA membership in the next few days addressing these issues.
Last edited by aa73; 02-23-2016 at 07:23 AM.
02-23-2016, 10:05 AM
#60
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: EMB 145 CPT
Posts: 2,934
Originally Posted by LuckyNow
God, please, never. I don't want anything to do with ALPA, and I certainly don't want to pay twice as much in dues while ALPA somehow attempts to represent the interest of AA pilots *and* the regional pilots that they company would love to give our Category A (hell, probably B as well) aircraft to. Thanks, but NO THANKS.
I don't see any of the benefits that you are talking about with ALPA. If you don't like what's happening at APA, then run for office, change it. This is our union, it is what we make it.
I don't see any of the benefits that you are talking about with ALPA. If you don't like what's happening at APA, then run for office, change it. This is our union, it is what we make it.
By the way, out of curiosity, what is the dues rate for APA?
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