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Old 09-04-2014, 04:26 PM
  #9441  
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Originally Posted by JerrySpringer
You don't get it because you haven't done it.

When, in a previous life, I was commuting the only requirement was to show up rested by check in. Which I did religiously.

Here, since they buy you a ticket they FORCE you to rest (even longer than if they DH you in the middle of a trip), which could necessitate leaving the house a full day earlier than you would if you were jumpseating. So, in essence, they are controlling your off days and hours you need to arrive in your base prior.

This is a job. I show up to make them money. They own all of my time for the contacted work period. My side of the deal is I get paid and time off.

And people wonder why there's a mob with pitchforks and torches.
"I don't get it?"...wow, okay.

What you seem to ignore in your rant above is that accepting a ticket to your base is absolutely voluntary...and you are most welcome to do it the same way as you did in a former life. (Jumpseat and show up just prior to report time.)

But since I did not have a former life, I wouldn't know that, right?!!

And the "mob with pitchforks and torches" comment is hardly necessary...we are all professionals. Let us at least be civil in the discourse.

Last edited by 744driver; 09-04-2014 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 09-04-2014, 04:36 PM
  #9442  
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Originally Posted by atpcliff
Gateway they airline u from gateway to wherever they want u to go, not necessarily to your base.
Nope. Gateway is from your gateway airport to your assigned crew base ONLY. Anything else is DH.

It's a significant distinction - for Gateway, you are subject to imputed income and may have to leave home on a day off. A DH (flying from home to anywhere except your crew base) isn't subject to taxation and you don't have to leave home prior to when AIMS shows you leaving JFK (in your case).
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:41 PM
  #9443  
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Home.......hmmmmm????? Isn't there where you would spend at least half of your time?

Let's see....12x17=204, plus lets say 3 gateways per 60 day line = 18, plus let's say you're junior and can't conflict your training days (which if you did by the way you get paid less than you normally would on a "day on") so 6 days plus 2 travel on the front end for sure...8, so there is 230 days a year right there...leaves you 135 days out of 365 to be with your family and kids, outside activities, hobbies, friends...maybe a few more than that if you are able to bid vacation to conflict with your bid...but then they cheat you on credits there as well.
Oh...guys that jumpseat usually only work 12-16 days a month.
Home reserve...or what most airlines would call long call...sorry...no pay for you.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:02 PM
  #9444  
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Originally Posted by captainv
Nope. Gateway is from your gateway airport to your assigned crew base ONLY. Anything else is DH.
AMENDMENT: Apologies to Cliff, you can be assigned Gateway travel from home to somewhere besides your crew base BUT the rules are different, which is the point I wanted to make. You can't report for duty at the other location any earlier than if you had been put on an actual DH from base and received rest (if required). On the 767 based in JFK, I never had to leave home prior to my trip beginning in AIMS, and it was never taxed, whereas I was taxed for anything that touched JFK.

Source: CBAG page 13

Thanks to Galaxydriver for challenging me on this. Expeditious travel and 20-hour rules still apply.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:10 AM
  #9445  
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Originally Posted by sinkrate
"Man how I regret leaving the right seat on that 747 back in 2003. I would have all sorts of PIC jet time by now. I guess we live and we learn..."

What happened at Atlas? tell us more... NYCPiLoT757

Atlas Air sucks but you regret leaving back in 2003? Worst job you ever had? I do want to trust you, but...

You live and learn, you live and learn
I regret it becuase I could have built the flight time needed to not eat **** at a Regional. Other than that its terrible. The long flights (and I mean LONG FLIGHTS), the not being able to maintain landing currency, the lack of manipulating the controls, the flying into crazy ass countries and flying in complete danger zones for which you are not compenstated for (at least not while I was there). The management not giving three ****s for the pilot group or any group for that matter. But by far its the being away for so long. When you are gone you are gone man......They will keep you out forever!!! Your wife and children WILL forget who you are!!! Its a laundry list man. I only regret it because I didnt get the experience required for me to get something better than what Im faced with now.... ;( If you like all of the crap I listed above than I'm sure you guys can enjoy it there.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:32 AM
  #9446  
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Originally Posted by NYCPiLoT757
I regret it becuase I could have built the flight time needed to not eat **** at a Regional. Other than that its terrible. The long flights (and I mean LONG FLIGHTS), the not being able to maintain landing currency, the lack of manipulating the controls, the flying into crazy ass countries and flying in complete danger zones for which you are not compenstated for (at least not while I was there). The management not giving three ****s for the pilot group or any group for that matter. But by far its the being away for so long. When you are gone you are gone man......They will keep you out forever!!! Your wife and children WILL forget who you are!!! Its a laundry list man. I only regret it because I didnt get the experience required for me to get something better than what Im faced with now.... ;( If you like all of the crap I listed above than I'm sure you guys can enjoy it there.
I am likely one of the last guys on this planet to defend our current conditions and our current CBA...but it is certainly better than what you are saying above, and what you may have experienced during your tenure here.

Are you sure your frustrations are not misplaced?...I agree that the CBA in 2003 was our first one, and woefully inadequate (heck, the current one is mostly made of Swiss cheese), but a lot of guys stuck it out, and built time in the airplanes (744 and 747 Classic) until they felt they had landed a better gig.

However, if you left on good terms from Atlas, there may be a way to get back here, if that is something you wish to pursue. Just a thought?!!

Good luck.
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Old 09-06-2014, 11:04 AM
  #9447  
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Originally Posted by 744driver
I am likely one of the last guys on this planet to defend our current conditions and our current CBA...but it is certainly better than what you are saying above, and what you may have experienced during your tenure here.

Are you sure your frustrations are not misplaced?...I agree that the CBA in 2003 was our first one, and woefully inadequate (heck, the current one is mostly made of Swiss cheese), but a lot of guys stuck it out, and built time in the airplanes (744 and 747 Classic) until they felt they had landed a better gig.

However, if you left on good terms from Atlas, there may be a way to get back here, if that is something you wish to pursue. Just a thought?!!

Good luck.
I did leave on good terms, actually great terms. I was with Atlas prior at a MX capacity so all in all I have been around Atlas since 1997. Back when Chowdry was still alive. I have thought about coming back but I'm just not sure. I hear the process is not what it was back when I got on. I was hired in 1999 as a F/E on the classic and upgraded to FO a year after. The interview was quite simple and the whacko test was also simple. I now hear you have to have come off the Space Shuttle in order to get back on....LOL. I do know many many great Captains that will recommend me but I am told that does not bypass the crazy phone and online test being administered. It would be nice if I could get a formal reaquaintance interview, shake some hands and get a class date....LOL ) We'll see what happens. I have a few guys checking in on this for me. Thanks for the luck wishes....I sure the heck need them!!!
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:01 PM
  #9448  
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Originally Posted by NYCPiLoT757
Atlas Air SUCKS!!!!!

Worst job I ever had in my life!!!

Atlas is a company that will soon start to fall apart.

WORST JOB I EVER HAD!!!!!
Originally Posted by NYCPiLoT757
Other than that its terrible.

If you like all of the crap I listed above than I'm sure you guys can enjoy it there.
Originally Posted by NYCPiLoT757
I did leave on good terms, actually great terms. I have a few guys checking in on this for me. Thanks for the luck wishes....I sure the heck need them!!!
I wish you the best of luck getting the job back that you hated so much! Make sure to mention all of the above points during your interview.
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Old 09-06-2014, 04:05 PM
  #9449  
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I have had four careers, and over 20 jobs...5 flying jobs. The most days of I have had was at atlas. It is not perfect, but I like it.

A solution to some of these problems is "Worldwide Gateway Basing". No more Pilot Bases. Your Gateway is now your base. If you lived by your base, then your old Base is now your Gateway Base.
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Old 09-06-2014, 04:10 PM
  #9450  
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Some of these ideas came from other Atlas pilots, some came from me (Atlas Line Pilot), while others were thought of by Atlas pilots working together.

I am not going to talk about increased hourly pay rates as everyone wants more money per hour, no matter how much we are paid.

Note: These are my opinions only.

Required in the New Contract, in no particular order:

1. International Gateway Basing with PBS.
- No more bases (JFK, MIA, ANC)
- Your Gateway is your Base. If you live near MIA, MIA is your base. If you live near MCI, MCI is your base. If you live near Dubai, Dubai is your base.

2. Line Guarantee

3. Atlas 401K Direct Contribution...no matching at all...suggest 15%

4. X Days are days off, with no compensation. ANYTHING other than an X day gets you Daily Trip Rig. In other words, R1 days, Training days, Vacation, and normal working days are paid at the same Daily Trip Rig rate.

5. Max Duty Day is 20 hours.
- Duty Days cannot be extended by the company. Duty days may be extended due to unforeseen circumstances, like an in-flight delay, an ATC delay, etc. If there is a major problem, like the only runway in Bagram closes for 2 hours, then the Crew and the Company may jointly decided the extended Duty Day is the best choice in the situation.
- If, by unforeseen circumstances, a Duty Day is extended past 20 hours, for any reason, then Duty hours 20-22 are paid at Double the Hourly Flight Pay Rate Above Guarantee. Duty hours 23-25 are paid at Triple the Hourly Flight Pay Rate, Above Guarantee. Duty hours over 25 hours are paid at FIVE TIMES the Hourly Flight Pay Rate, Above Guarantee.
-This should cut down on the company's making the flight crews do 20+ duty days and giving them $50 credit to eat a meal. This is crap.

6. Profit Sharing. No restrictions/exemptions/exclusions

7. Preferential Bidding System with 30/60 day lines

8. Fixed Perdiem of at least $90/hour.

9. Two Payscales, one for Captains, and one for F0s (no different payscales for different planes).

10. No Training Pay. All pilots Day One on first year pay.
-For those who may not have thought of this...for Atlas to function well in the future, we need new hire pilots, and the current Training Pay system is terrible.

11. Variable Days Off Bid:
- There would be a 6 or 12 month bid period where you bid for how many days of work you want. You would be for less, equal, or more days of work than we have now.
- With the current system of 17 days of work required, an example of the Variable Days Off System would be 1/3 of the pilots works 15 days, 1/3 works 17 days, and 1/3 works 19 days. X Days pay would be the same for everyone as far as 1st X day, 2nd X day, etc.

12. Monthly Guarantee increased to at least 72 hours/month.

13. All days off guaranteed if requested.
- In other words, vacation and training days would not reduce the number of days off you received in that month
- Easy to do with a checkbox on the bid schedule:
- One would be for Vacation Days. If you check the box you require ALL your Vacation Days be duty free, AND ALL your normal Days Off be duty free.
- One would be for Training Days. If you check the box, you require ALL your Training Days to be assigned during your Normal Work Days.

14. Deadhead pay changes.
- If you Deadhead on a Commercial Airline in Business Class or better, you are paid 0.5 hours of pay for each hour of Deadhead Duty Hours.
- If you Deadhead on an Atlas Air controlled aircraft (non-Airline ticket), or you Deadhead on a Commercial Airline in Coach Class, then you are paid 1:1 for each hour of Deadhead Duty Hours.

Desired in the New Contract, in no particular order:

1. Pilots get paid the higher of these four guarantees
Note: This system is typical for most airlines.

First: Monthly Guarantee Credit
- No changes (except for a higher monthly guarantee)

Second: Bid Line Award Credit earned for the month
- You would receive a credit of the higher of the Actual Bid Line Credit, or the Planned Bid Line Credit. You would not lose pay if your Actual Line Credit was reduced below Planned.

Third: Daily Trip Rig Total Credit earned for the month
- No changes

Fourth: Pattern Rig Total Credit earned for the month.
- Each Pattern (trip) has a certain amount of credit that is planned. You would receive a credit of the higher of the Actual Pattern Credit, or the Planned Pattern Credit. You would not lose pay if your Actual Pattern Credit was reduced below Planned.
- If you only had ONE Pattern scheduled for the month, then your Line Award Credit would be the same as your Pattern Credit for that month. However, if you had, for example, TWO patterns scheduled for the month, then your Line Credit could be less than your Pattern Credit for that month.

At the end of the month, you would receive the higher of: Your Monthly Guarantee, your Line Bid Credit, your Daily Trip Rig Monthly Credit, or your Pattern Rig Monthly Credit.

2. Vacation Increase:
-Years 2-4: Two Weeks
-Years 5-9: Three Weeks
-Years 10-15: Four Weeks
-Years 11-14: Five weeks
-Years 15+: Six weeks


I would like to start a dialog, so that the crew force can start communicating what we want in the New Contract, and get these ideas of what is most important to us visible to the Union, so that the Union knows what the Crew Force considers a “Major Improvement” in the New Contract.

I welcome all comments, feedback, suggestions, improvements, etc.

God Bless and namaste
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