K4 Pilots Declaration Of Independance !
01-13-2018, 12:01 AM
#442
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
Well, for starters, that statement is wrong.
Teamsters is not just Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor.
Teamsters is also Allegiant, ABX, OMNI, Southern, & others.
And it is your management that considers the other Teamster ACMI carriers to be competitors. It is your fellow Teamster pilots who consider other Teamster ACMI carriers to be union brothers and sisters.
So apparently, you fall in line with the philosophy of your own management group.
On these very message boards, your fellow K4 pilots have raved about just how good your new contract is. A contract that, although could be better (as some K4 pilots have admitted), is leading among other ACMI carriers. It was brought to you by the Teamsters.
Allegiant also has a good contract provided by the Teamsters. And now that Teamsters has provided you with a good contract, you want to jump ship. That shows real loyalty.
I've flown for three ALPA represented carriers (two of which were ACMI carriers) and if you think for one minute that ALPA will pay attention to you during negotiations, if you think that for one minute that the FedEx pilot group will have grounds to support you during a strike, you are kidding yourself.
You're right, though, that ALPA represents 59,000 other pilots. But almost all of them make far more money than Kalitta pilots. And almost all of them are represented by far, far larger pilot groups than Kalitta. Even the regional airlines, have three to ten times the pilots that Kalitta has. And these bring in more revenue than Kalitta will provide for their bottom line.
Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they'll send resources to during negotiations? Kalitta, the ACMI carrier, with its almost 400 pilots or all the other ALPA carriers that provide a hundred times more money to their coffers?
Think about that.
8
Teamsters is not just Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor.
Teamsters is also Allegiant, ABX, OMNI, Southern, & others.
And it is your management that considers the other Teamster ACMI carriers to be competitors. It is your fellow Teamster pilots who consider other Teamster ACMI carriers to be union brothers and sisters.
So apparently, you fall in line with the philosophy of your own management group.
On these very message boards, your fellow K4 pilots have raved about just how good your new contract is. A contract that, although could be better (as some K4 pilots have admitted), is leading among other ACMI carriers. It was brought to you by the Teamsters.
Allegiant also has a good contract provided by the Teamsters. And now that Teamsters has provided you with a good contract, you want to jump ship. That shows real loyalty.
I've flown for three ALPA represented carriers (two of which were ACMI carriers) and if you think for one minute that ALPA will pay attention to you during negotiations, if you think that for one minute that the FedEx pilot group will have grounds to support you during a strike, you are kidding yourself.
You're right, though, that ALPA represents 59,000 other pilots. But almost all of them make far more money than Kalitta pilots. And almost all of them are represented by far, far larger pilot groups than Kalitta. Even the regional airlines, have three to ten times the pilots that Kalitta has. And these bring in more revenue than Kalitta will provide for their bottom line.
Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they'll send resources to during negotiations? Kalitta, the ACMI carrier, with its almost 400 pilots or all the other ALPA carriers that provide a hundred times more money to their coffers?
Think about that.
8
If Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, then I must ask the following questions:
1. What was the reason Teamsters held up a contract the K4 pilot group wanted to vote for.
2. What is the reason Teamsters is holding up a contract the Omni pilots want to vote for.
3. Who benefits were Connie to cease operations.
4. Can you explain to me and everyone else reading this board why it is that sometimes Connie underbids Atlas and at other times Atlas underbids Connie.
Let me tell you who is not a competitor, UPS and FedEx, in fact K4 is not a pimple on their backsides and they could careless what we do. Whether you agree with me or not K4 and Atlas are competitors.
This statement tells me you know nothing about ALPA:
“Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they’ll send resources to during negotiations?.....”
Here is a small copy of how ALPA allocates dues:
“The remaining 4.0% (24%-20%) of operating income of the largest pilot groups is redistributed to smaller MECs throughout ALPA. In essence, ALPA's larger pilot groups provide a subsidy to ALPA's smaller pilot groups to ensure adequate funding for their union activities.”
Any questions, just think about that.
01-13-2018, 01:37 AM
#443
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: B777 CA
Posts: 585
Originally Posted by newb2
Do you really believe Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, because if you do we will have to agree to disagree.
If Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, then I must ask the following questions:
1. What was the reason Teamsters held up a contract the K4 pilot group wanted to vote for.
2. What is the reason Teamsters is holding up a contract the Omni pilots want to vote for.
3. Who benefits were Connie to cease operations.
4. Can you explain to me and everyone else reading this board why it is that sometimes Connie underbids Atlas and at other times Atlas underbids Connie.
Let me tell you who is not a competitor, UPS and FedEx, in fact K4 is not a pimple on their backsides and they could careless what we do. Whether you agree with me or not K4 and Atlas are competitors.
This statement tells me you know nothing about ALPA:
“Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they’ll send resources to during negotiations?.....”
Here is a small copy of how ALPA allocates dues:
“The remaining 4.0% (24%-20%) of operating income of the largest pilot groups is redistributed to smaller MECs throughout ALPA. In essence, ALPA's larger pilot groups provide a subsidy to ALPA's smaller pilot groups to ensure adequate funding for their union activities.”
Any questions, just think about that.
If Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, then I must ask the following questions:
1. What was the reason Teamsters held up a contract the K4 pilot group wanted to vote for.
2. What is the reason Teamsters is holding up a contract the Omni pilots want to vote for.
3. Who benefits were Connie to cease operations.
4. Can you explain to me and everyone else reading this board why it is that sometimes Connie underbids Atlas and at other times Atlas underbids Connie.
Let me tell you who is not a competitor, UPS and FedEx, in fact K4 is not a pimple on their backsides and they could careless what we do. Whether you agree with me or not K4 and Atlas are competitors.
This statement tells me you know nothing about ALPA:
“Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they’ll send resources to during negotiations?.....”
Here is a small copy of how ALPA allocates dues:
“The remaining 4.0% (24%-20%) of operating income of the largest pilot groups is redistributed to smaller MECs throughout ALPA. In essence, ALPA's larger pilot groups provide a subsidy to ALPA's smaller pilot groups to ensure adequate funding for their union activities.”
Any questions, just think about that.
newb2 is obviously no newbie of any sort
01-13-2018, 02:56 AM
#444
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
An argument that a few K4 pilot persist in spreading because they were impatient and afraid of a strike. Maybe they are senior and are feeling the pinch prior to retirement. Now they have convinced a few others that their word is gospel.
What on earth do you think a union should provide if not coordination between carriers who are in danger of being pitted against each other?? Should a union support their carriers undercutting each other? Would you support another ACMI carrier signing a contract with lower pay scales and cheaper work rules than you have? Don't you think customers would flock to this other cheaper carrier? Don't you think your more expensive carrier would suffer? Do you simply not understand the concept of unity among pilot groups? Have you never heard of airlines being whipsawed against each other?
I could understand you being upset if Teamsters wanted to shove a subpar contract down your throat, but they were fighting for better work rules for you. Not worse.
And FYI, Atlas and Southern pilots are fighting for each other AND for ABX pilots. That is what union unity is like.
8
What on earth do you think a union should provide if not coordination between carriers who are in danger of being pitted against each other?? Should a union support their carriers undercutting each other? Would you support another ACMI carrier signing a contract with lower pay scales and cheaper work rules than you have? Don't you think customers would flock to this other cheaper carrier? Don't you think your more expensive carrier would suffer? Do you simply not understand the concept of unity among pilot groups? Have you never heard of airlines being whipsawed against each other?
I could understand you being upset if Teamsters wanted to shove a subpar contract down your throat, but they were fighting for better work rules for you. Not worse.
And FYI, Atlas and Southern pilots are fighting for each other AND for ABX pilots. That is what union unity is like.
8
Again, I point out that no such action was taken during the Allegiant negotiations.
01-13-2018, 07:06 AM
#445
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 693
Originally Posted by catching waves
Why on Earth does anyone care if K4 stays or goes? Seriously. Why? Why would a regular line Atlas Guy, Omni, Allegiant guy care? If you do not work at Kalitta, why is it any of your concern? Does K4 leaving 1224 impact you personally? Aside from ego, explain how. Come on, I dare you (And I honestly couldn’t give two Hillary’s if you tell me why) but this seems to me that it’s such a pressing need for you all to express yourselves on the topic of K4 union affiliation.
Because if you followed the ABX strike of Nov 2016 you'd immediately see the value of having everyone on the field under the same local.
One might argue that ABX and Atlas are "competitors". And you'd be correct on one level. But one thing that cannot be denied is the remarkable cooperation between the two pilot groups that happens behind the scenes, and largely OFF the webboards.
But you'd have to be paying attention and engaged to recognize that.
So yeah, go ahead, see how much "love" you get from ALPA.
lol
01-13-2018, 07:31 AM
#446
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 299
We just got an industry leading ACMI contract, we just won an arbitration to reduce our duty times by 6 hours (thanks to Teamsters delaying the contract), and our immediate reaction is to join an organization that scabbed the last DHL strike.
This...this...is why we can't have nice things around here...
This...this...is why we can't have nice things around here...
01-13-2018, 07:49 AM
#447
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2015
Posts: 666
Originally Posted by jhugz
We just got an industry leading ACMI contract, we just won an arbitration to reduce our duty times by 6 hours (thanks to Teamsters delaying the contract), and our immediate reaction is to join an organization that scabbed the last DHL strike.
This...this...is why we can't have nice things around here...
This...this...is why we can't have nice things around here...
01-13-2018, 09:06 AM
#448
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by jhugz
We just got an industry leading ACMI contract, we just won an arbitration to reduce our duty times by 6 hours (thanks to Teamsters delaying the contract), and our immediate reaction is to join an organization that scabbed the last DHL strike.
This...this...is why we can't have nice things around here...
This...this...is why we can't have nice things around here...
This airline is loaded with pilots who blatantly admit they only give a **** about themselves. They will step on your back and steal a trip from you and smile in your face.
The guy who and others who started this movement went straight for the nuclear option. Not one of them has volunteered a single second to make any improvements at our local.
Yes the local has problems yes alpa has problems. We should have attempted to fix them before going nuclear.
01-13-2018, 10:01 AM
#449
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by newb2
Do you really believe Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, because if you do we will have to agree to disagree.
If Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, then I must ask the following questions:
1. What was the reason Teamsters held up a contract the K4 pilot group wanted to vote for.
2. What is the reason Teamsters is holding up a contract the Omni pilots want to vote for.
3. Who benefits were Connie to cease operations.
4. Can you explain to me and everyone else reading this board why it is that sometimes Connie underbids Atlas and at other times Atlas underbids Connie.
Let me tell you who is not a competitor, UPS and FedEx, in fact K4 is not a pimple on their backsides and they could careless what we do. Whether you agree with me or not K4 and Atlas are competitors.
This statement tells me you know nothing about ALPA:
“Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they’ll send resources to during negotiations?.....”
Here is a small copy of how ALPA allocates dues:
“The remaining 4.0% (24%-20%) of operating income of the largest pilot groups is redistributed to smaller MECs throughout ALPA. In essence, ALPA's larger pilot groups provide a subsidy to ALPA's smaller pilot groups to ensure adequate funding for their union activities.”
Any questions, just think about that.
If Teamsters is not Atlas and Atlas is not a competitor, then I must ask the following questions:
1. What was the reason Teamsters held up a contract the K4 pilot group wanted to vote for.
2. What is the reason Teamsters is holding up a contract the Omni pilots want to vote for.
3. Who benefits were Connie to cease operations.
4. Can you explain to me and everyone else reading this board why it is that sometimes Connie underbids Atlas and at other times Atlas underbids Connie.
Let me tell you who is not a competitor, UPS and FedEx, in fact K4 is not a pimple on their backsides and they could careless what we do. Whether you agree with me or not K4 and Atlas are competitors.
This statement tells me you know nothing about ALPA:
“Who do you think ALPA will pay attention to when it push comes to shove?? Who do you think they’ll send resources to during negotiations?.....”
Here is a small copy of how ALPA allocates dues:
“The remaining 4.0% (24%-20%) of operating income of the largest pilot groups is redistributed to smaller MECs throughout ALPA. In essence, ALPA's larger pilot groups provide a subsidy to ALPA's smaller pilot groups to ensure adequate funding for their union activities.”
Any questions, just think about that.
The answer to the first two questions is "to negotiate the best contract possible."
As for #3, under what possible circumstances would Connie cease operations as it relates to Teamsters?
Question #4: Connie isn't underbidding Atlas, they are being subcontracted to fill flights that Atlas can't operate due to understaffing.
Let me ask you a question.
How, exactly, has Atlas benefitted from these "stall tactics" at Omni or Kalitta? In case you haven't noticed, life at Atlas sucks while you are enjoying a decent Teamster contract.
As for ALPA's operating statements, their actions speak louder than their words. I have seen ALPA operate where I worked at three different airlines, two of which were ACMI operators. K4 pilots will be the bastard stepchildren when it comes to getting any assistance from ALPA.
I speak from over twenty years of ALPA experience. Do you?
8
01-13-2018, 10:41 AM
#450
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 66
And another day has gone by, with no answer regarding my post. Why do you all care whether K4 stays or goes? As some of you clearly point out how abysmal the working conditions are at some teamster represented companies, shouldn’t your energies be focused on fixing your messed up house instead of stirring up ours? Seriously, let it go. Go on with you life. Enough is enough. All your doing now is screaming into the face of the winds of change.
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