K4 Pilots Declaration Of Independance !
01-15-2018, 06:55 AM
#481
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: B767 Capt.
Posts: 171
Originally Posted by maxjet
How much do you believe the Teamsters did for our contract that ALPA or any other union would have not done? There was no magic here. The magic occured because of OUR Negotiations Team’s work. That and an environment that would not supply pilots to an airline that wanted to expand. If you think any different you are mistaken. The other issue you accuse ALPA of: Scabbed the last strike? Really? That’s what you think happened? Would have nothing to do at all with ALPA carriers not being advised of the work action? Would not be at all the result of **** poor planning by the Teamsters? Do you actually think for one second that any of us,including you,would not honor a picket line that we had been told was legal? 2 sides to every story with that one. I think there is blame on both sides and will go with the truth being in the middle.
The proper reaction was to stick together in support of all the pilots in the industry until the judge ruled. But no, ALPA and the ATI MEC acted like little b... and snubbed their noses at the ABX pilots hoping to score brownie points with management. Which they did.
01-15-2018, 05:38 PM
#482
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by gumpscheck
You or ALPA did not know if the strike was legal or not until the judge ruled. That decisoon took over two days. In the meantime ALPA kept calling our “self help action,” ie. strike, illegal.
The proper reaction was to stick together in support of all the pilots in the industry until the judge ruled. But no, ALPA and the ATI MEC acted like little b... and snubbed their noses at the ABX pilots hoping to score brownie points with management. Which they did.
The proper reaction was to stick together in support of all the pilots in the industry until the judge ruled. But no, ALPA and the ATI MEC acted like little b... and snubbed their noses at the ABX pilots hoping to score brownie points with management. Which they did.
I would like your honest opinion. Do you think ALPA would have advised their Pilots to honor the picket line if Teamsters had notified ALPA as to the rationalization and legal grounds for the strike prior to the strike? I was not there when it happened that day so I cannot have much of an informed opinion. There may be many reasons why Teamsters could not notify ALPA, or it could have just been an over site.
The other side of the equation is that perhaps ALPA was asked by the ATI MEC for an opinion. Because the ALPA Attorney had nothing to go on he assumed it was a Wildcat Strike? In that case, he or she would advise not honoring the line. This would be the more conservative way to go. If it was shown that it was a Wildcat (it was shown not to be), ALPA would have been on the hook for the punishment that their members received for not doing their due diligence. This could be complete bull because I don’t know a thing. Just trying to come up with a rational reason why ALPA would ever tell one of their pilot groups not to honor the line when they have advised just the opposite in the past.
01-16-2018, 09:25 AM
#483
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: B-767
Posts: 158
Originally Posted by maxjet
First off, what is happening to you guys just sucks. In retrospect I think your action was completely legally justified, and I am proud of you guys for doing it. I think that the stop order was a result of the Cincy Mafia’s political influence.
I would like your honest opinion. Do you think ALPA would have advised their Pilots to honor the picket line if Teamsters had notified ALPA as to the rationalization and legal grounds for the strike prior to the strike? I was not there when it happened that day so I cannot have much of an informed opinion. There may be many reasons why Teamsters could not notify ALPA, or it could have just been an over site.
The other side of the equation is that perhaps ALPA was asked by the ATI MEC for an opinion. Because the ALPA Attorney had nothing to go on he assumed it was a Wildcat Strike? In that case, he or she would advise not honoring the line. This would be the more conservative way to go. If it was shown that it was a Wildcat (it was shown not to be), ALPA would have been on the hook for the punishment that their members received for not doing their due diligence. This could be complete bull because I don’t know a thing. Just trying to come up with a rational reason why ALPA would ever tell one of their pilot groups not to honor the line when they have advised just the opposite in the past.
I would like your honest opinion. Do you think ALPA would have advised their Pilots to honor the picket line if Teamsters had notified ALPA as to the rationalization and legal grounds for the strike prior to the strike? I was not there when it happened that day so I cannot have much of an informed opinion. There may be many reasons why Teamsters could not notify ALPA, or it could have just been an over site.
The other side of the equation is that perhaps ALPA was asked by the ATI MEC for an opinion. Because the ALPA Attorney had nothing to go on he assumed it was a Wildcat Strike? In that case, he or she would advise not honoring the line. This would be the more conservative way to go. If it was shown that it was a Wildcat (it was shown not to be), ALPA would have been on the hook for the punishment that their members received for not doing their due diligence. This could be complete bull because I don’t know a thing. Just trying to come up with a rational reason why ALPA would ever tell one of their pilot groups not to honor the line when they have advised just the opposite in the past.
01-16-2018, 05:11 PM
#484
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by maxjet
This could be complete bull because I don’t know a thing. Just trying to come up with a rational reason why ALPA would ever tell one of their pilot groups not to honor the line when they have advised just the opposite in the past.
The ABX pilots stood up to management on many issues over the years and were not afraid to tell management to pound sand. They also negotiated a good contract.
Contrast that to the pathetic contract of ATI. The MEC at ATI saw this as an opportunity to kiss management ass and gain an advantage. So they refused to back their fellow pilots.
Did you ever wonder why flying was taken away from ABX and given to ATI? It was a reward for stabbing their fellow pilots in the back.
It was all done with the blessing of ALPA.
01-16-2018, 06:01 PM
#485
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by CargoPirate
Maybe it was because the ATI pilot group and its MEC had a much better relationship with management.
The ABX pilots stood up to management on many issues over the years and were not afraid to tell management to pound sand. They also negotiated a good contract.
Contrast that to the pathetic contract of ATI. The MEC at ATI saw this as an opportunity to kiss management ass and gain an advantage. So they refused to back their fellow pilots.
Did you ever wonder why flying was taken away from ABX and given to ATI? It was a reward for stabbing their fellow pilots in the back.
It was all done with the blessing of ALPA.
The ABX pilots stood up to management on many issues over the years and were not afraid to tell management to pound sand. They also negotiated a good contract.
Contrast that to the pathetic contract of ATI. The MEC at ATI saw this as an opportunity to kiss management ass and gain an advantage. So they refused to back their fellow pilots.
Did you ever wonder why flying was taken away from ABX and given to ATI? It was a reward for stabbing their fellow pilots in the back.
It was all done with the blessing of ALPA.
01-16-2018, 09:40 PM
#487
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 53
I see the Teamsters propaganda machine is alive and well. Yesterday we received a letter from our Exco saying Teamsters did not write or edit this new letter. I guess when we pointed out the BS letter that was sent from the Exco last week was written by Teamsters we hit a nerve, so I’m sure the Exco were given their marching orders to refute this and put out a letter of their own.
Let’s go throw this new letter one point at a time.
Point one:
“Nearly every argument we’ve seen or heard for decertification in some way revolves around Dan Wells, 1224 President. No, we certainly have not always agreed with him, and still do not. But his role in the lengthy contract negotiations/ratification process is being drastically overblown. Ladies and gentleman, DW is not the boogeyman. He is not some evil, all-powerful force who delayed ratification for his own selfish motives and who to this day still wants to derail our careers.”
I couldn’t agree more with the Exco assessment. The problem is not what DW did to us, the problem is that Teamsters National has done nothing to curtail this mans antics. Case in point, the same thing that was done to us is being done to Omni. So what does that tell us, it speaks volumes to where Teamsters allegiance is, it lives with Atlas and no one else. Remember Atlas has over 1700 pilots, Kalitta has 375, so who do you think is controlling the purse strings? I can guarantee you it’s not Kalitta.
Point two:
“As important as contract negotiations are, we all know that we need a strong Union here for other, equally import reasons. For example, more than 15% of our pilots at KA are in the Optimized Proficiency Training (OPT) Program…….. Yet over the years that we’ve been here, we’ve heard nothing but gratitude, praise and respect for the level of advocacy provided by 1224 to the pilot who finds himself in a training-related hearing. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say there are pilots here who would not still be pilots here, but for the strong representation provide by Teamsters Local 1224.. !224 has always had the pilot’s back. Would whatever individual or organization that replaces 1224? We just don’t know at this point. If it’s your job that’s hanging by a thread, do you want to be the one to find out the answer is no?”
Really, if the representation is so good, why do we continue to have a problem with our training department which places pilots in OPT. Why hasn’t the Teamsters taken steps to alleviate this problem? Yes the Teamsters does represent the crewmember when necessary, but they have not taken a proactive approach to mitigate this issue. The implication is that only Teamsters can represent a crewmember, which is laughable given the number of pilots ALPA represents.
Point three:
The scare tactic continues by saying “In fact, it is no exaggeration to say there are pilots here who would not still be pilots here, but for the strong representation provided by Teamsters Local 1224. 1224 has always had the pilots back. Would whatever individual or organization that replaces 1224? We just don’t know at this point…”
The Exco knows that we do not seek to replace Teamsters with an individual, we are going to move to a professional organization, that represents over 59,000 pilots. I am more than willing to put my trust into this association as opposed to an outfit such as the Teamsters.
Point four:
“The monumental leap of faith that the advocates for decertification are trying to get us to take is almost mind-boggling. They’re asking us to end our affiliation with a national union that has 1.4 million members, and whose local has provided stellar service to a great many of our pilots when they really needed it…….”
The monumental leap of faith would be staying with the Teamsters, where nothing will change. After the debacle with DW, Teamsters National did nothing and will continue to do nothing, because Teamsters is Atlas. Just ask the Omni pilots what they think of 1224. The claim that Teamsters has 1.4 million members is accurate but misleading, how many pilots does Teamsters represent. The Exco conveniently neglected to include this number, because it is a pittance compared to ALPA.
Point five:
“We’re just supposed to take the word of one individual, and a few posters on the web boards that if we just decertify, all will be well. Well, no thanks guys, None of us were born yesterday”
We can see right through this propaganda, because the Exco and the Teamsters know it is illegal for another union to “raid a shop”. ALPA cannot actively pursue our membership, however, we have already spoken with ALPA and any concern as to whether they will accept us has been asked and answered. It is a non-issue.
Point six:
“Finally, as you make you voting decision please do so on the basis of the best available information and be discerning in what you read and who you listen to.”
Yes, be very careful who you listen to and what their motivation is concerning their viewpoint. It is imperative that you consider just how effective the Teamsters have been over the years. Are you impressed with the level of representation we have? Are you happy with the language in our new contract or are there significant holes in this language? You already know the answer to that, but I submit we would be better served working with ALPA.
Remember even though the Exco claims Teamsters had no input with this new letter, the Exco still maintains a fiduciary responsibility to the Teamsters. In English that means the Exco will do the Teamsters bidding at all cost. If you thought we were treated poorly during the last round of negotiations, keep the Teamsters on the property and see how they treat us.
Let’s go throw this new letter one point at a time.
Point one:
“Nearly every argument we’ve seen or heard for decertification in some way revolves around Dan Wells, 1224 President. No, we certainly have not always agreed with him, and still do not. But his role in the lengthy contract negotiations/ratification process is being drastically overblown. Ladies and gentleman, DW is not the boogeyman. He is not some evil, all-powerful force who delayed ratification for his own selfish motives and who to this day still wants to derail our careers.”
I couldn’t agree more with the Exco assessment. The problem is not what DW did to us, the problem is that Teamsters National has done nothing to curtail this mans antics. Case in point, the same thing that was done to us is being done to Omni. So what does that tell us, it speaks volumes to where Teamsters allegiance is, it lives with Atlas and no one else. Remember Atlas has over 1700 pilots, Kalitta has 375, so who do you think is controlling the purse strings? I can guarantee you it’s not Kalitta.
Point two:
“As important as contract negotiations are, we all know that we need a strong Union here for other, equally import reasons. For example, more than 15% of our pilots at KA are in the Optimized Proficiency Training (OPT) Program…….. Yet over the years that we’ve been here, we’ve heard nothing but gratitude, praise and respect for the level of advocacy provided by 1224 to the pilot who finds himself in a training-related hearing. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say there are pilots here who would not still be pilots here, but for the strong representation provide by Teamsters Local 1224.. !224 has always had the pilot’s back. Would whatever individual or organization that replaces 1224? We just don’t know at this point. If it’s your job that’s hanging by a thread, do you want to be the one to find out the answer is no?”
Really, if the representation is so good, why do we continue to have a problem with our training department which places pilots in OPT. Why hasn’t the Teamsters taken steps to alleviate this problem? Yes the Teamsters does represent the crewmember when necessary, but they have not taken a proactive approach to mitigate this issue. The implication is that only Teamsters can represent a crewmember, which is laughable given the number of pilots ALPA represents.
Point three:
The scare tactic continues by saying “In fact, it is no exaggeration to say there are pilots here who would not still be pilots here, but for the strong representation provided by Teamsters Local 1224. 1224 has always had the pilots back. Would whatever individual or organization that replaces 1224? We just don’t know at this point…”
The Exco knows that we do not seek to replace Teamsters with an individual, we are going to move to a professional organization, that represents over 59,000 pilots. I am more than willing to put my trust into this association as opposed to an outfit such as the Teamsters.
Point four:
“The monumental leap of faith that the advocates for decertification are trying to get us to take is almost mind-boggling. They’re asking us to end our affiliation with a national union that has 1.4 million members, and whose local has provided stellar service to a great many of our pilots when they really needed it…….”
The monumental leap of faith would be staying with the Teamsters, where nothing will change. After the debacle with DW, Teamsters National did nothing and will continue to do nothing, because Teamsters is Atlas. Just ask the Omni pilots what they think of 1224. The claim that Teamsters has 1.4 million members is accurate but misleading, how many pilots does Teamsters represent. The Exco conveniently neglected to include this number, because it is a pittance compared to ALPA.
Point five:
“We’re just supposed to take the word of one individual, and a few posters on the web boards that if we just decertify, all will be well. Well, no thanks guys, None of us were born yesterday”
We can see right through this propaganda, because the Exco and the Teamsters know it is illegal for another union to “raid a shop”. ALPA cannot actively pursue our membership, however, we have already spoken with ALPA and any concern as to whether they will accept us has been asked and answered. It is a non-issue.
Point six:
“Finally, as you make you voting decision please do so on the basis of the best available information and be discerning in what you read and who you listen to.”
Yes, be very careful who you listen to and what their motivation is concerning their viewpoint. It is imperative that you consider just how effective the Teamsters have been over the years. Are you impressed with the level of representation we have? Are you happy with the language in our new contract or are there significant holes in this language? You already know the answer to that, but I submit we would be better served working with ALPA.
Remember even though the Exco claims Teamsters had no input with this new letter, the Exco still maintains a fiduciary responsibility to the Teamsters. In English that means the Exco will do the Teamsters bidding at all cost. If you thought we were treated poorly during the last round of negotiations, keep the Teamsters on the property and see how they treat us.
01-17-2018, 05:15 AM
#488
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 694
Originally Posted by newb2
We can see right through this propaganda, because the Exco and the Teamsters know it is illegal for another union to “raid a shop”. ALPA cannot actively pursue our membership, however, we have already spoken with ALPA and any concern as to whether they will accept us has been asked and answered. It is a non-issue.
I deleted all the other commentary to your post because it's emotional, personal and paranoid.
But the quote above is really the PERTINENT ISSUE.
My response is: Sure! ALPA would love to have you (and your dues money). But GOOD LUCK trying to get FAIR REPRESENTATION from them.
If you think your REPRESENTATION was bad under IBT, just wait until you need something from ALPA.
This is really the kernel of the entire issue. Typical emotional human response.
Again, good luck. You're gonna need it!
01-17-2018, 06:02 AM
#490
VHR-very happily retired
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,409
Originally Posted by zerozero
Frankly, I'm bored with this thread because it's going around in circles, so this will likely be my last post on the subject.
I deleted all the other commentary to your post because it's emotional, personal and paranoid.
But the quote above is really the PERTINENT ISSUE.
My response is: Sure! ALPA would love to have you (and your dues money). But GOOD LUCK trying to get FAIR REPRESENTATION from them.
If you think your REPRESENTATION was bad under IBT, just wait until you need something from ALPA.
This is really the kernel of the entire issue. Typical emotional human response.
Again, good luck. You're gonna need it!
I deleted all the other commentary to your post because it's emotional, personal and paranoid.
But the quote above is really the PERTINENT ISSUE.
My response is: Sure! ALPA would love to have you (and your dues money). But GOOD LUCK trying to get FAIR REPRESENTATION from them.
If you think your REPRESENTATION was bad under IBT, just wait until you need something from ALPA.
This is really the kernel of the entire issue. Typical emotional human response.
Again, good luck. You're gonna need it!
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