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K4 Pilots Declaration Of Independance !

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K4 Pilots Declaration Of Independance !

Old 01-14-2018, 02:43 AM
  #471  
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Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER View Post
And another day has gone by with no understanding of the information that we are posting here.

It is all about the unity of different pilot groups. The reason that the major airlines have the great contracts is that they have adopted a unified strategy to build on each other's contracts - and NOT to undercut each other.

That is what 1224 is trying to do. Actually, 1224 has a unique opportunity in that, as ACMI carriers, most of their respective airlines have many of the same customers. In the past, the customer would drive the contracts by going to the lowest bidder. Now, however, 1224 is trying to raise the bar for all of the carriers by removing that option. There is also an advantage in that many of our contracts are currently under negotiation at the same time. By coordinating strategies, it is possible to raise the bar for ALL the pilots. This can only happen when the various pilot groups work together under their union.

So, to reiterate in case you are unclear, the union status at other 1224 airlines is of vital interest to all of us. To ditch 1224 now that you have a contract is not only strategically a bad idea, but it abandons all the other DHL carriers at a time that we need to have each other's backs covered.

8
If what you write is true, then why, oh why, has the Teamster layer of Management not stepped in and stopped DW from abusing the power of the race to the bottom agreement? You cannot deny that his actions clearly support the goals of only Atlas.

Why such resistance to such a fair and simple concept of a board of representatives, one from each airline to decide if a contract TA is predatory or lowering the bar for the group?

The answer is simple to me. Because the Kalitta contract while raising the bar quite a bit, had a reduction from a 30 hour to a 24 hour max duty day for a double crew in it. A clause that Atlas is trying to negotiate down to 20 hours for their pilots. The K4 TA also had additional duty reductions in it. Deal is ready to be done and DW by himself acts to quash it. Several months go by, appeals up the chain to Hoffa go ignored, until NLB finally steps in and gets a deal done. What’s the deal? The original TA minus ALL of the reduced duty rules, suspended for one year, and an agreement to arbitrate the 24 hour max double crew duty day one year from date of signing.

So, for a year we work under the OLD rules. Then the new duty rules kick in this past December. Then WE have to PAY for an arbitration on the 24 hour day. Guess what? The Arbitrator decides to give us the original TA award. Yes, we had to pay to get the original TA agreement on double crew max duty day.

Now I read on here that we have pilots who believe that the Teamsters actually got us a huge increase in quality of life with this award? Gosh some of us are just clueless.

Ok, so that is water over the dam right? Not so much. Omni now has a pending TA. Atlas is trying to negotiate a stop to their companies ability to extend them out to 20 days, which by the way K4 has never had. 16 and go home for us. Omni’s TA allows it. Ott-Oh Omni, even though you New TA is a substantial leap forward in pay and work rules, your Pilots will not Vote on it because it is “lowering the bar” by being extendable to 20 days.

So DC8, tell me, where is this unity that you speak of?

BTW I noticed that DW approved the Allegiant contract with its junior manning and extension clauses in it. Funny how that works when it isn’t against the Atlas goals.

My opinion is that 1224 is as morally corrupt as 747 was physically corrupt. 1224 management has made no effort to change when they are clearly aware of the problem. I guess it is time to go. After the ABX and Omni contracts are finalized, hopefully they will join us and we can unify under the ALPA banner. That would help with the whipsawing attempts at ATI.

Godspeed and good luck to us all
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Old 01-14-2018, 05:25 AM
  #472  
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Maxjet there are many that can't understand your hard-on for this move. you constantly claim you have no dog in this fight as you are about to retire in 2 years from you cushy sim gig, yet you go on like one of DP's mouth pieces??

It is also funny how the band of merry men who started this are basically from ATA and Midwest, two carriers which ALPA did such a sterling job for and are flourishing.....Oh wait, my bad.

The one thing I think we agree on is that 100% of K4 pilots feel that DW did do wrong by us. However 1 person is not the union, the pilots are the union. DP and most of the others have not made any strides or wish to, by admission, want to help either in 1224 or IF ALPA vote passes, run for office in ALPA. What does that tell you??? Tells me a lot.

The vote opens on Jan 25th and I hope that the pilot group realize the potential impact of this move by a few selfish, self serving, DW butt hurt individuals.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:09 AM
  #473  
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[QUOTE=DC8DRIVER;2502360]And another day has gone by with no understanding of the information that we are posting here.



I have to agree 100%, another day has gone by and you and several others do not understand the information that we are posting here. You believe the Kalitta contract undercuts the Atlas contract, and from your perspective I can understand why you feel this way. But I did see a post from another K4 pilot that pointed out that our operation is not the same as yours, and as such what works for you does not work for us. My question is why is this so difficult to understand?

The bottom line being you are not going to persuade me that staying with the Teamsters is a good for us, and I am not going to convince you that the move to ALPA is good for Kalitta.
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Old 01-14-2018, 11:57 AM
  #474  
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Originally Posted by WhaleWrangler View Post
Maxjet there are many that can't understand your hard-on for this move. you constantly claim you have no dog in this fight as you are about to retire in 2 years from you cushy sim gig, yet you go on like one of DP's mouth pieces??

It is also funny how the band of merry men who started this are basically from ATA and Midwest, two carriers which ALPA did such a sterling job for and are flourishing.....Oh wait, my bad.

The one thing I think we agree on is that 100% of K4 pilots feel that DW did do wrong by us. However 1 person is not the union, the pilots are the union. DP and most of the others have not made any strides or wish to, by admission, want to help either in 1224 or IF ALPA vote passes, run for office in ALPA. What does that tell you??? Tells me a lot.

The vote opens on Jan 25th and I hope that the pilot group realize the potential impact of this move by a few selfish, self serving, DW butt hurt individuals.
Sorry to read that you must be so insulting in trying to get your point across. My role in all of this is to use my prior experience, in both aviation and other fields, to leave this place better than when I got here. I am surprised at the fear that you seem to have about going in a new direction, when the old one is obviously corrupt. If you think this move is about just DW you are just sooooo shortsighted. It is the union managements response to his actions both past and present that is so telling.

Any time you would like to switch jobs with me, I would be more than happy to oblige. I had a blast flying peak this year and look forward to doing it full time after my commitment here ends in November. I can start making some money and see the world again. Win win for me in my 16 months.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:56 PM
  #475  
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Originally Posted by WhaleWrangler View Post
The one thing I think we agree on is that 100% of K4 pilots feel that DW did do wrong by us. However 1 person is not the union, the pilots are the union.
Really? You think what happened to us was isolated? Please take a few minutes, go to the charter section, and read about the Omni negotiations. There are pilots so frustrated with 1224, (Atlas), that they are talking decertification, even before they get a contract. For your own future security please open your eyes, look at the evidence and then on the 25th vote for what you think is best for you and us.

The question that nobody has asked is: What would a future at the Teamsters look like?

My guess is, not so bright. With the predatory Management team in place at Atlas Holdings and Bezos lurking in the wings, I see an upcoming disaster for the Atlas pilot group.

Atlas Mgt, and Bezos are very astute businesspeople (let’s name them the Cinci Mafia) who are very politically connected. They will figure out an iron clad way to manipulate the work force through movement of the assets. You think the RRLA is tough? I suspect you have not seen anything yet.

Polar/Atlas is a sinking ship that will drag ATI and ABX down with them. With the political connections these guys have, you are never going to see an authorized strike on the CVG ramp. Atlas management already has an injunction against it pilots. It is time for us to divorce ourselves from this mess.

I see a future at ALPA as one in which we are not dragged into this mess. Connie acts as support lift for the Cincinnati Mafia when the price suits him, and we get the benefit of the ALPA programs.

If your view is different I would like to read it. After all, I don’t exactly have a crystal ball.
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Old 01-14-2018, 06:19 PM
  #476  
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Can’t you be a sim instructor beyond age 65?
I am willing to have an open mind going into this, and set aside the experience I had with ALPA at a regional, but only if all the emotion is cut out, and only the facts are presented. I know ALPA can’t publicly offer us support until the teamsters are de-certified, but how do we know they will take us? Is there a reason for them not to? What if they don’t? Have there been assurances that they would take us? Is this even a valid concern to have?
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Old 01-15-2018, 02:03 AM
  #477  
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Originally Posted by No Land 3 View Post
Can’t you be a sim instructor beyond age 65?
I am willing to have an open mind going into this, and set aside the experience I had with ALPA at a regional, but only if all the emotion is cut out, and only the facts are presented. I know ALPA can’t publicly offer us support until the teamsters are de-certified, but how do we know they will take us? Is there a reason for them not to? What if they don’t? Have there been assurances that they would take us? Is this even a valid concern to have?
all valid questions
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:37 AM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by No Land 3 View Post
Can’t you be a sim instructor beyond age 65?
I am willing to have an open mind going into this, and set aside the experience I had with ALPA at a regional, but only if all the emotion is cut out, and only the facts are presented. I know ALPA can’t publicly offer us support until the teamsters are de-certified, but how do we know they will take us? Is there a reason for them not to? What if they don’t? Have there been assurances that they would take us? Is this even a valid concern to have?
Not at Kalitta Air. I am not rich by any stretch, but I am financially secure, with no debt and multiple small sources of income. The only way I would work past 65 would be as a pilot at Kalitta. I am not a huge fan of being an instructor, but I made a commitment to stay in the school house until November. I really miss flying, seeing the world and hanging around with the Kalitta Family. (Yes, I know how corny that reads). After November, I will fly full time until I have to retire. If they raise the age I would stay until 67 mostly out of the love of the job. However, making an extra 600k would be a nice thing also��

Answering the other question. It is not a valid concern to me.
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Old 01-15-2018, 05:29 AM
  #479  
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Originally Posted by maxjet View Post
Really? You think what happened to us was isolated? Please take a few minutes, go to the charter section, and read about the Omni negotiations. There are pilots so frustrated with 1224, (Atlas), that they are talking decertification, even before they get a contract. For your own future security please open your eyes, look at the evidence and then on the 25th vote for what you think is best for you and us.

The question that nobody has asked is: What would a future at the Teamsters look like?

My guess is, not so bright. With the predatory Management team in place at Atlas Holdings and Bezos lurking in the wings, I see an upcoming disaster for the Atlas pilot group.

Atlas Mgt, and Bezos are very astute businesspeople (let’s name them the Cinci Mafia) who are very politically connected. They will figure out an iron clad way to manipulate the work force through movement of the assets. You think the RRLA is tough? I suspect you have not seen anything yet.

Polar/Atlas is a sinking ship that will drag ATI and ABX down with them. With the political connections these guys have, you are never going to see an authorized strike on the CVG ramp. Atlas management already has an injunction against it pilots. It is time for us to divorce ourselves from this mess.

I see a future at ALPA as one in which we are not dragged into this mess. Connie acts as support lift for the Cincinnati Mafia when the price suits him, and we get the benefit of the ALPA programs.

If your view is different I would like to read it. After all, I don’t exactly have a crystal ball.
As an Atlas guy I believe that anyone under 55 should get out. We've got some over 55 that it makes sense to leave.

As a Kalitta guy it surprises me that you really believe that your job is more stable than mine. Edit... Just read you're 65. If I were a 12 year Captain under 55, I'd bolt K4 over just the retirement.
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:11 AM
  #480  
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Originally Posted by Globemaster2827 View Post
As an Atlas guy I believe that anyone under 55 should get out. We've got some over 55 that it makes sense to leave.

As a Kalitta guy it surprises me that you really believe that your job is more stable than mine. Edit... Just read you're 65. If I were a 12 year Captain under 55, I'd bolt K4 over just the retirement.
K4 is more stable, in that the Airline is valueless if it is not run as an airline. There is no route structure to sell, the aircraft are not new, and the OSK operation is not a part of the airline other than the symbiotic one it provides for both. K4 is in a niche market and will continue to flourish there even after Connie is gone. Thru the experience gained with past mistakes and successes, He has created an airline that is way more valuable being operated than it is being broken up and sold. With the future management people that are waiting in the wings, there is a stable, not spectacular, just stable future here.

16% contribution to the old 401k would be very nice and hopefully future contracts will move in that direction.

If I were a younger man, given the QOL life and the “family” culture when the chips are down, (hurricane, bereavement, family crisis), I would stay here until my retirement.
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