Western Global Airlines
12-27-2021, 06:32 PM
#351
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,093
Originally Posted by Hawkerdriver1
Fatigue was definitely the worst aspect of the job when I started. I wasn’t sure how I’d even survive, after my 1st rotation, I was so wasted. It took me almost a week to even feel normal again back home……
Longer rest periods work best for me on long legs. Being willing to sit up front longer to give my colleagues & myself the opportunity to actually rest longer.. Result: Way less fatigue.
We had a rather rare leg recently from Inchon to Chicago. A 12 hour flight. One of the captains asked me if I’d be willing to cover most of the cruise portion. If I did, he would take the whole leg from Chicago back to Anchorage. A 6 hour flight. I said “Absolutely.” On that last leg, I fell asleep in the crew rest area. The 6 hour flight felt like it took about an hour & I wasn’t even tired anymore!
HD
Longer rest periods work best for me on long legs. Being willing to sit up front longer to give my colleagues & myself the opportunity to actually rest longer.. Result: Way less fatigue.
We had a rather rare leg recently from Inchon to Chicago. A 12 hour flight. One of the captains asked me if I’d be willing to cover most of the cruise portion. If I did, he would take the whole leg from Chicago back to Anchorage. A 6 hour flight. I said “Absolutely.” On that last leg, I fell asleep in the crew rest area. The 6 hour flight felt like it took about an hour & I wasn’t even tired anymore!
HD
12-28-2021, 03:43 AM
#353
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by Swakid8
If he did, that’s ridiculous. Thats damn near a 20 duty day…
With four pilots, what's the legal duty day under international rules (14 CFR 121.523)? 30 hours. Welcome to reality. You may have missed it, wrapped up in the cozy confines of Part 117, or the fact that the supplemental world was carved out of the duty and rest rules when introduced a decade ago. In other words, excluded.
Standard duty day for a two-man crew, domestic? 16 hours.
Three pilots domestic? 18 hours. International with three pilots? 26 hours.
Four pilots domestic? 20 hours. International 30 hours.
If that crew flew ICN-ORD with revenue cargo, however, and ended their duty day in Chicago, it's entirely possible that the next leg back to Incheon was done under Part 91, after duty. This is legal.
Not legal was what WGA was trying to do a few years ago with the 747 crews: Part 91 legs BEFORE duty. A chief pilot quit over that.
WGA runs it's MD11s under domestic flight, duty, and rest requirements, as it has no rest facilities on board, and does not do crew rest on board. Not so, of the 747, which can do international flight, duty and rest rules. WGA has also done a lot of Part 91 repositioning, ORD-ICN, or LAX-ICN on legs up to 14 hours, and they've done it with as few as two-man crews, though more often with just three.
For the bonus round, how much rest is required of a crewmember on their first duty day, before duty, in the supplemental world? If you guessed zero, and you'd have to guess as this is clearly foreign to you, you'd have guessed correctly. Go figure.
How much rest time is required "behind the door?" Zero, because this is an imaginary term not found in the regulation. Thus, when WGA commercials a crewmember to Anchorage for 13 hours, then gives 10 hours "rest" from arrival to departure, the crew member might take an hour getting to the hotel, typically shows two hours prior in the lobby, and has seven hours. If the crewmember selfishly wishes to eat, deduct a couple of hours to go get food, there's five hours. If one is stupid enough to believe a crew member can fall asleep, and wake up and prep in an hour, there's four hours of actual "rest" before the duty day, but let's face it. That's really not happening either, especially if one's the captain and will be getting up to prep for the flight, call each crewmember an hour prior, etc, to say nothing of the rolling delays pushing the flight back an hour, or three hours at a time, sometimes for another 12+ hours. WGA maintains, as do most supplementals, that if a crewmember is fatigued, he or she may call fatigue, but otherwise, the show goes on. Factor into that time zones, cumulative fatigue, and other things that Part 117 covers...but that supplemental regulations do NOT, and even a simple legal duty day may be a whole lot longer than a simple legal duty day, and a lot more exhausting than a mere 16, 18, 20, 26, or 30 hours. Factor in trips that fly west in which you fly all day but only see night, cross the dateline to return and land two hours before they took off, and trips that span two days and never see dark...and you may be a supplemental pilot. If any of that surprises you, then clearly you have never been.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1...-121/subpart-S
12-28-2021, 06:26 AM
#355
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,427
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
You've never flown supplemental, have you?
With four pilots, what's the legal duty day under international rules (14 CFR 121.523)? 30 hours. Welcome to reality. You may have missed it, wrapped up in the cozy confines of Part 117, or the fact that the supplemental world was carved out of the duty and rest rules when introduced a decade ago. In other words, excluded.
Standard duty day for a two-man crew, domestic? 16 hours.
Three pilots domestic? 18 hours. International with three pilots? 26 hours.
Four pilots domestic? 20 hours. International 30 hours.
If that crew flew ICN-ORD with revenue cargo, however, and ended their duty day in Chicago, it's entirely possible that the next leg back to Incheon was done under Part 91, after duty. This is legal.
Not legal was what WGA was trying to do a few years ago with the 747 crews: Part 91 legs BEFORE duty. A chief pilot quit over that.
WGA runs it's MD11s under domestic flight, duty, and rest requirements, as it has no rest facilities on board, and does not do crew rest on board. Not so, of the 747, which can do international flight, duty and rest rules. WGA has also done a lot of Part 91 repositioning, ORD-ICN, or LAX-ICN on legs up to 14 hours, and they've done it with as few as two-man crews, though more often with just three.
For the bonus round, how much rest is required of a crewmember on their first duty day, before duty, in the supplemental world? If you guessed zero, and you'd have to guess as this is clearly foreign to you, you'd have guessed correctly. Go figure.
How much rest time is required "behind the door?" Zero, because this is an imaginary term not found in the regulation. Thus, when WGA commercials a crewmember to Anchorage for 13 hours, then gives 10 hours "rest" from arrival to departure, the crew member might take an hour getting to the hotel, typically shows two hours prior in the lobby, and has seven hours. If the crewmember selfishly wishes to eat, deduct a couple of hours to go get food, there's five hours. If one is stupid enough to believe a crew member can fall asleep, and wake up and prep in an hour, there's four hours of actual "rest" before the duty day, but let's face it. That's really not happening either, especially if one's the captain and will be getting up to prep for the flight, call each crewmember an hour prior, etc, to say nothing of the rolling delays pushing the flight back an hour, or three hours at a time, sometimes for another 12+ hours. WGA maintains, as do most supplementals, that if a crewmember is fatigued, he or she may call fatigue, but otherwise, the show goes on. Factor into that time zones, cumulative fatigue, and other things that Part 117 covers...but that supplemental regulations do NOT, and even a simple legal duty day may be a whole lot longer than a simple legal duty day, and a lot more exhausting than a mere 16, 18, 20, 26, or 30 hours. Factor in trips that fly west in which you fly all day but only see night, cross the dateline to return and land two hours before they took off, and trips that span two days and never see dark...and you may be a supplemental pilot. If any of that surprises you, then clearly you have never been.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1...-121/subpart-S
With four pilots, what's the legal duty day under international rules (14 CFR 121.523)? 30 hours. Welcome to reality. You may have missed it, wrapped up in the cozy confines of Part 117, or the fact that the supplemental world was carved out of the duty and rest rules when introduced a decade ago. In other words, excluded.
Standard duty day for a two-man crew, domestic? 16 hours.
Three pilots domestic? 18 hours. International with three pilots? 26 hours.
Four pilots domestic? 20 hours. International 30 hours.
If that crew flew ICN-ORD with revenue cargo, however, and ended their duty day in Chicago, it's entirely possible that the next leg back to Incheon was done under Part 91, after duty. This is legal.
Not legal was what WGA was trying to do a few years ago with the 747 crews: Part 91 legs BEFORE duty. A chief pilot quit over that.
WGA runs it's MD11s under domestic flight, duty, and rest requirements, as it has no rest facilities on board, and does not do crew rest on board. Not so, of the 747, which can do international flight, duty and rest rules. WGA has also done a lot of Part 91 repositioning, ORD-ICN, or LAX-ICN on legs up to 14 hours, and they've done it with as few as two-man crews, though more often with just three.
For the bonus round, how much rest is required of a crewmember on their first duty day, before duty, in the supplemental world? If you guessed zero, and you'd have to guess as this is clearly foreign to you, you'd have guessed correctly. Go figure.
How much rest time is required "behind the door?" Zero, because this is an imaginary term not found in the regulation. Thus, when WGA commercials a crewmember to Anchorage for 13 hours, then gives 10 hours "rest" from arrival to departure, the crew member might take an hour getting to the hotel, typically shows two hours prior in the lobby, and has seven hours. If the crewmember selfishly wishes to eat, deduct a couple of hours to go get food, there's five hours. If one is stupid enough to believe a crew member can fall asleep, and wake up and prep in an hour, there's four hours of actual "rest" before the duty day, but let's face it. That's really not happening either, especially if one's the captain and will be getting up to prep for the flight, call each crewmember an hour prior, etc, to say nothing of the rolling delays pushing the flight back an hour, or three hours at a time, sometimes for another 12+ hours. WGA maintains, as do most supplementals, that if a crewmember is fatigued, he or she may call fatigue, but otherwise, the show goes on. Factor into that time zones, cumulative fatigue, and other things that Part 117 covers...but that supplemental regulations do NOT, and even a simple legal duty day may be a whole lot longer than a simple legal duty day, and a lot more exhausting than a mere 16, 18, 20, 26, or 30 hours. Factor in trips that fly west in which you fly all day but only see night, cross the dateline to return and land two hours before they took off, and trips that span two days and never see dark...and you may be a supplemental pilot. If any of that surprises you, then clearly you have never been.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1...-121/subpart-S
You have no idea what I have flown what I haven't flown so spare me the lecture of duty hour limits of supplemental operation per FARs.
Maybe get some duty limits in y'all next CBA.....
12-28-2021, 06:29 AM
#356
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by Swakid8
Cough Contract, Cough
You have no idea what I have flown what I haven't flown so spare me the lecture of duty hour limits of supplemental operation per FARs.
Maybe get some duty limits in y'all next CBA.....
You have no idea what I have flown what I haven't flown so spare me the lecture of duty hour limits of supplemental operation per FARs.
Maybe get some duty limits in y'all next CBA.....
I responded to your words, expressing shock at a 20 hour duty day.
If that shocks you, then you ain't seen nothing, yet.
12-28-2021, 06:55 AM
#357
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 2,427
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
I couldn't give a stuff what you've flown, kid.
I responded to your words, expressing shock at a 20 hour duty day.
If that shocks you, then you ain't seen nothing, yet.
I responded to your words, expressing shock at a 20 hour duty day.
If that shocks you, then you ain't seen nothing, yet.
I am looking at what the industry is doing and comparing it to what WGA is doing.
12-28-2021, 07:11 AM
#358
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by Swakid8
There’s a time and place for long supplemental ops and long duty days like going into places where staying isn’t a option John. The shock isn’t about a long duty day to be honest but it’s trying to normalize a long duty for flights like ORD-ICN-ANC where WGA has the option of laying a crew over in ICN.
I am looking at what the industry is doing and comparing it to what WGA is doing.
I am looking at what the industry is doing and comparing it to what WGA is doing.
Most likely the second leg was a Part 91 leg, but we don't know.
As you're intimately familiar with the regulation, then you know that a crew must voluntarily agree to make the second leg under Part 91, as the company cannot assign it. If the company assigns a flight, it's duty. The duty can end, however, and the Pat 91 flight be conducted after duty has ended, and it not considered duty.
That does not preclude an operator from conducting a strictly Part 91 day, such as repositioning an empty aircraft with no revenue cargo or passengers on board. Barring contractual obligations (eg, a union contract), the company employs the crew and may use crew to move an airplane the same as a corporate airplane, without legal requirement of rest interval prior, or after the flight, or duty limitations. Such flying is still commercial in nature and counts toward cumulative flight time limitations, but is not otherwise regulated by flight, duty, or rest requirements under Part 121.
As for "a time and a place," for long supplemental flights, that would be every flight a supplemental operator makes, which is why the regulation exists. To suggest that utilizing the flight, duty, and rest limitations imposed by the regulation is somehow reserved for extraordinary circumstances is ridiculous. If the regulation states that 20 hours is the duty day, then 20 hours area available for the duty day. It's that simple.
Nor shocking.
I don't now (nor do I care) what part of the industry you've experienced, but I've certainly flown and operated long 30 hour days, for years, in the "industry." Frequently, and regularly. I don't believe that WGA does such long days with regularity, but others do.
As for the operator that suggested the duration of the leg from Incheon to Chicago was rare and unusual, that's because he's on the 747 fleet. Dubai to Incheon, Los Angeles to Incheon, and Chicago to Incheon are regular features for the MD11 crew, who do not enjoy on board crew rest.
12-28-2021, 09:00 AM
#359
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2013
Posts: 393
Originally Posted by Swakid8
There’s a time and place for long supplemental ops and long duty days like going into places where staying isn’t a option John. The shock isn’t about a long duty day to be honest but it’s trying to normalize a long duty for flights like ORD-ICN-ANC where WGA has the option of laying a crew over in ICN.
I am looking at what the industry is doing and comparing it to what WGA is doing.
I am looking at what the industry is doing and comparing it to what WGA is doing.
Sure, the new contract says 18 hour scheduled limit, but that’s not implemented yet…and likely won’t be until we go back to laying over in places like HKG, which we likely never will.
These days are being “normalized” now at Atlas.
12-28-2021, 09:05 AM
#360
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2019
Posts: 53
HeRp DeRp LoOk aT mE I’M A rEaL fReIght doG I wOrKeD pLenTy oF 30 hOuR dAyS!!!
if your company is requiring you to Part 91 on your last leg (unless you’re stuck in a war ridden country with nowhere to stay)- maybe you should find a new company. That’s all I’m going to say.
if your company is requiring you to Part 91 on your last leg (unless you’re stuck in a war ridden country with nowhere to stay)- maybe you should find a new company. That’s all I’m going to say.
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