JohnBurke

I'm not under those rules. I don't work for them. They are under those rules because they are a supplemental carrier, and because they abide the basic supplemental rest, flight, and duty rules and regulations, and because they do not have OpSpec A117 which authorizes them to utilize 14 CFR 117.

Cujo665

They are under the old rest rules because they are Cargo, and not because they are supplemental.

Flightcrew Member Duty and Rest Requirements (faa.gov)

They are Cargo, hence 117 does not apply to them, therefore they remain under the original rest rules.

The only Supplemental that still applies is the choice to use the 121 rest rules for domestic (121.503 -121.509), or the 121 rules for international (121.515, 121.521 - 121.525)... which are still the old rest rules and only applicable to Cargo operations.

The supplemental doesn't dictate 121 vs 117 rest rules..... it's cargo vs passenger that does

JohnBurke

When 117 was drafted, it was intended to cover all operations. The cargo industry lobbied hard to ensure that it didn't have to operate under the more restrictive rest, duty and flight time requirements of 117.

The rest, duty, and flight time limitations provided by 121 Subpart S (Supplemental) apply to all supplemental carriers. You may want to review your own company's operations manual, section 4.11.1.1, which specifically covers Subpart S, and cites the limitations as applicable. You may not be familiar with this, as it's inclusive of your company operations, too. You'll note that Subpart S does not state "cargo operators only," because this is not the case.

Your operations, which are not cargo, but passenger, include the use of Operations Specification A117, which references the use of 14 CFR Part 117. Further, 117.1(a) states that the applicability is for all flight crew members and certificate holders conducting passenger operations under Part 121.

Your operation, while not a cargo operation, does have authorization to do cargo flights within a narrow stricture, and does operate under Subpart S for those operations. You are a passenger operation and not a cargo operation, but you can and do utilize Subpart S when doing cargo-only flights. Further your operation states that it will restrict Subpart use to cargo-only operations. Your manual includes both duty and flight time limitations and restrictions for Subpart S, and for 117.

The authorization for your operation, as a certificate holder under 121, to utilize the flight, duty, and rest limitations occurs because of your operations specifications (which include all your authorizations and limitations). OpSpec A117 is the authorization that enables you to use 14 CFR 117 for flight, rest, and duty limitations. The FAA has NOT removed the distinctions between types of carriers. The simple fact is that your company does multiple types of operations, including charter/supplemental work, as well as operations on behalf of flag carriers. The FAA did not eliminate regulation separating references to supplemental, domestic, and flag operations. Such thinking is far too simplistic, and you may not understand where the authorization for your operator lies. It is NOT the same authorization as Western Global Airlines, and it's not a matter of flying cargo.

Western Global Airlines could elect to apply for, and receive authorization to operate with OpSpec A117, but chooses not to do so. Neither do other cargo carriers because it ties their hands, reduces their hours, and hobbles their operation. While it is a higher level of safety and is science based, A117 isn't something cargo carriers will seek, and it's something they lobbied hard to avoid having thrust upon them.

The regulation has several elements by which understanding is had. The first is the preamble to the final rule, found in the Federal Register. The second are the FAA Chief Legal Counsel letters of interpretation, and the third is the regulation itself. Ancillary are Administrative Law Judge and board decisions and judgement, though most are not binding nor do they necessarily set precedent. The only authority empowered to interpret the regulation is the FAA Administrator, and that is delegated to the Chief and Assistant Chief Legal Counsel. The Federal Register preable to the final rule for 117 was published January 4, 2012: https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...t-requirements

It states, in part:
This may be that to which you referred, but it does not mean, nor imply that the FAA distinction was eliminated between domestic, flag and supplemental operaitons, except as applicable to 117, addressing rest, duty, and flight time limitations. You will note that 121 still references domestic, flag, and supplemental operations separately, as they contain different certificate holder authorizations. Therefore, the distinction between them is not eliminated, save for a unification of flight, duty, and rest rules. You will note, for example, that Part 121 includes separate references in Subpart E and F, Approval of Areas and Routes, for Domestic/Flag, or Supplemental operations. The distinction exists.

Regarding cargo operations, the preamble also states:
As noted, WGA, et al, could elect to operate under 117, but does not. One ought not expect to see a change in the near future from the various cargo operators, who worked hard to see this provision inserted in the NPRM. It was not there when the NPRM was first issued for public comment. The preamble to the final rule includes reference specifically to Corporate Airlines 121 fatal passenger mishap, as well as an ATI DC-8 cargo mishap operated under Part 91. The NTSB sought to include rest and duty operations for cargo 91, not just for cargo, not just for passenger, and not just for domestic, flag, or supplemental. NTSB recommendations were across the board. Further, the NTSB sought to include not only 91 operations, but also Part 135. You will note that the present 117 does not reflect these NTSB "Most Wanted Transportation Safety Improvements," and has been whittled down considerably from what it was. This is largely due to operators protesting the burden it might impose.

Regarding this scope, the preamble cites the FAA's proposal as:
It should be noted that it wasn't just cargo carriers objecting to the restrictions imposed by the NPRM (now Part 117). Supplemental carriers objected:
Again, one needs to understand that the regulation is more than the words under Title 14. The Federal Register preamble is considered the primary source of understanding of the regulation's intent, as this is the only place it is spelled out legally. It is the means by which the regulation's formation and underlying intent is established. How it's applied in enforcement and operation is spelled out in legal interpretations. The rest and duty rules were meant for all operations. The FAA has not lost of dissolved the distinction between types of carriers or carrier certificates. Your own operation (NOT Western Global) is a supplemental passenger operation with a limited-scope authorization for cargo operations, includes 121 Subpart S in your general operations manual and flight and duty time limitations (depending on the operation you do), and applies to you, even though you are a passenger operation that does conduct multiple types of certificate operations. The point is, all operators may seek A117. Your authorization to use it is found in your operations specifications.

Agailn, however, this is not about your employer. The thread is about Western Global Airlines, which does NOT utilize A117, nor operate under Part 117.

It is incorrect to say that only cargo operations are exempt, as that is not true. It is incorrect to say that supplemental operations, including your own, do not have, nor utilize 121 Subpart S, as that is not true. It is incorrect to say that 121 Subpart S does not apply to passenger operations, as in your own case, you are a supplemental passenger operation, and it does apply to you, is found in your own operations manual, and is called out in Chapter 4 thereof. Several years ago your operation adopted and began operating under the new authorization to follow Part 117, ten days before the new part went into effect, in 2014.

Additionally, your operation uses an established labor agreement between pilots and the company which further establishes the nature of operating hours, limitations, rest requirements, and so forth. That type of agreement does not presently exist at Western Global.

121 Subpart S applies to all supplemental carriers. As a passenger operation, you are also beholden to the more restrictive 117, and it is under 117.1(a) and OpSpec A117 that you are authorized (and thus also required) to follow those ADDITIONAL regulations. Never the less, as a passenger 121 supplemental carrier, you continue to maintain 121 Subpart S in your operations manual. That distinction and applicability did not vanish. You are simply issued an additional limitation and authorization by which you abide for your passenger operations, while still presenting Subpart S as applicable to your operations. You paint a picture of either this, or that, and such is not the case. For your operation, both are applicable.

For Western Global, OpSpec A117, and 14 CFR Part 117, are not applicable. Western Global is not limited from seeking and obtaining OpSpec A117: being cargo does not mean that WGA cannot use that regulation. For your operation, having A117 and utilizing Part 117 does not mean that Subpart is is not applicable to you, as it is, and it is found in your operations manual and documentation. It's not nearly as simple as stating that cargo operators follow subpart S, while everyone else follows 117, nor is it true that the distinctions between domestic, flag, and supplemental certificates holders have been removed. Some distinctions have been unified, some have not.

Cujo665

Thanks for another great diatribe of really good info but doesn't address the simple fact that what mandates 117 is the type of operation, Passenger vs Cargo; not being supplemental. You're a great source of knowledge in most cases, but on this one not so much.

If you read page 332 from the Federal Register you linked you'll see the FAA exempted Cargo operations from 117. It specifically states; "The FAA also has removed all-cargo operations from the applicability section of the new part 117." The exemption has zero to do with being supplemental and being supplemental appears nowhere in the exemptions.

ALL passenger operations come under 117, there is no choice. The differentiator if 117 is mandatory at any carrier is if the carrier is dispatching as Passenger vs Cargo and has zero to do with supplemental.
The ONLY thing supplemental does from that point is it lets the cargo company choose between part 117 rules and the part 121 domestic and international rest rules

Cargo has three choices.
1.) use 117
2.) use 121 rest rules for domestic (121.503 -121.509)
3.) use 121 rules for international (121.515, 121.521 - 121.525)

The rest of your original post that started this Segway I still agree with.

Oh, by the way..... our Section 4 in our company manual you referenced literally starts off in 4.1 with a huge note added in 2014 by - in summation - saying the difference in the rules is determined by Cargo vs Passenger.

That's why it doesn't say anything about subpart S..... supplemental isn't the criteria, Cargo vs Pax is the criteria for rest rules. Supplemental for cargo just lets the company choose which rest rules they want to use. I never said a company (including my own) can't do 117 for their pax operations, and 121 rules for their cargo operations, and I do not know where you got that from? In our case, a labor agreement restricts them to 117 only. This still goes back to what I originally said, the determining criteria is if the operation is being dispatched cargo or passenger; scheduled, unscheduled, charter, supplemental, flag, international, domestic.... all irrelevant to which rest rules apply. It's either cargo or it's passenger. If it's passenger it's 117; if it's Cargo they have the choice of 117, 121 domestic, 121 international.

Yes, it really is that simple. The type of operation dictates the rules.

I do enjoy the discussions though; it makes me dig into the books more.

JohnBurke

It really isn't, and clearly you don't understand.

What you clearly don't understand is that Part 117 is not your authorization. Your employer, like any 121 employer (supplemental or otherwise) is issued an operating certificate by the FAA, and the authorizations allowed your operator are granted through the Operations Specifications. The authorization that designates your flight, duty, and rest rules is A117. Dig out your OpSpecs and look.

YOUR operator also utilizes 121 Subpart S, and YOUR general operations manual (Chapter 4: go look) will provide for the use of duty, rest, and flight times for domestic-only supplemental basic regulations, found in 121.503-509.

This is NOT the case for Western Global, and this is a thread about Western Global, much as you seem to wish to make it about you, or your airline. Your airline is not a cargo airline, and yet your airline operations manual also invokes 121 Subpart S (domestic only, even for international operations) for certain operations that it's authorized to do. It is NOT as simple as CARGO AIRLINE vs. PASSENGER AIRLINE. You're a passenger line. You are still beholden to and for certain operations, operate under Subpart S (domestic only).

You stated that your operations manual states nothing about Subpart S. Go read it again. You'll find that Supbart S is cited repeatedly in section 4 of that manual. Imagine that. YOUR airline, a passenger airline, that cites Subpart S in it's FAA-approved General Operations Manual. Go figure.

Cujo665

Yes John, I've read them. It's an "authorization" that every passenger airline is mandated to have.

Yes John, I've read that too.... and as I said, the distinction between which rest rules apply is by the operation; cargo or passenger..... it literally says that in the note on page 4.1, the very first page. It also says it in the very Federal Register you yourself linked but are now ignoring.

I'm not the one who brought my airline in to the discussion John, you did that. I'm simply pointing out that the requirement to go by 117 is determined by being passenger or cargo operation; not by being supplemental.

No, I said never said my manual doesn't have a subpart S section; what I said what that Subpart S has nothing to do with determining if you are under 117 or not. The type of operation - cargo vs passenger is the trigger.

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EDIT - I do see the part you're referencing, and that is poor wording on my part;

That should have been more clear:
The addition of the note in 2014 on page 4.1 explaining the change to the entire chapter is why the subpart S (later in that same chapter) doesn't say anything about rest rules. It doesn't have to.

even this would have been more clear.
"It literally does not say anything about it in subpart S..........."
and why? because subpart S is not the criteria for determining if 117 applies or not

JohnBurke

I don't mind your inaccuracies, or that you're consistently wrong. What I do mind is you lying to me. You quite literally just said:

I'm done with further discussion with you. Ignorance, perhaps. Lying I will not tolerate.

Cujo665

As shown in the Federal Register you linked; the carve out is for cargo, it doesn't say supplmental exclusion, it says cargo.

If that said supplemental cargo operations I'd agree


This was the original post. The two glaring issues are highlighted. It is those I spoke to.

The only issue was is the type of operation that determines which rules to apply, not being supplemental.

Cujo665

Scroll up, I saw what you referenced after I posted and went back and edited for clarity. It was a separate paragraph and a new thought and should not have been comingled with the rest. I edited for clarity

The fact remains, the Federal Register you linked says the exemption is for Cargo operations, and THAT is why it doesn't say anything about subchapter S

If you want to discuss my manual more, I'll point out that is also says the criteria is the type of operation, cargo vs passenger. Subchapter S is silent on it because it is not the criteria t determine if 117 applies or not.

No airline can fly passengers without complying with 177, they are mandate to use it. Cargo operators may choose to use 117, 121 domestic, or 121 international.

The criteria is if it is a cargo or passenger operation.

Cujo665

repost from above -



There was nothing Intentional there.

That should have been more clear:
The addition of the note in 2014 on page 4.1 explaining the change to the entire chapter is why the subpart S (later in that same chapter) doesn't say anything about rest rules. It doesn't have to.

even this would have been more clear.
"It literally does not say anything about it in subpart S..........."
and why? because subpart S is not the criteria for determining if 117 applies or not

I've proven what I've said. The type of operation - cargo vs passenger - dictates if 117 applies.
The FAA docs you linked said it
the manual reference also says it.

You have yet to show any documentation where Supplemental or Subchapter S is the deciding factor if 117 applies.

Done