Cujo665

To piggyback on what b707guys posted... at Omni the pilot group has grown by over 1/3rd since the new CBA, new to us planes are being added, an upgrades are well under 3 years. Sooner if you have the required mins. What’s better? A larger DC, or a faster upgrade to $200k plus a year? For those in the left seat already, what’s better a larger DC or a new payscale that changes top step from $219 to $297 per hour?

There’s an old saying...
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Likewise, those insisting on all at once or nothing contracts typically end up very disappointed.

Elevation

I understand the thought that you need to take what you can get now rather than hold out for an eternity for a stellar contract. There are examples where pilot groups held out too long, as well. Having these thoughts might make a person more open to the idea of taking what they can get immediately.

I think in this case it's hard to ignore the fact that ATSG pit one group of pilots against another and got ATI to accept less than what they're worth. Going back into some of the older threads you can see references to narrow-body flying being awarded and threats of furloughs at ABX. To me it seems like this was a successful campaign to intimidate the ATI pilot group into accepting some pretty low wages to fly heavy jets. People retroactively look at this like a strategic decision to get an even better contract in the future. I'm not sure I buy this. The industry as a whole gets new contracts and makes concessions as macroeconomics change globally.

So as Delta, UPS or whatever company ratify new contracts, the order of desirability by company changes but not appreciably. Generally the companies at the top stay at the top and the companies at the bottom stay at the bottom. This usually changes only when large companies get absorbed or go out of business.

When we look at examples that have made that rare leap from bottom-feeder to good prospect, the examples I can think of all include radical leaps in compensation. Kalitta is a recent example of this. FedEx was a terrible job in the early years and smart pilots avoided working there. That all changed very, very rapidly. So the idea that it's strategically necessary to take what's easily available to improve your position in the future doesn't hold water.

ATI's new contract was sold as a way to facilitate growth. That growth in e-commerce was going to happen regardless. There simply weren't enough airplanes, pilots and operators to meet the transport demand of Amazon Air. Had you held out for more compensation, you'd still be getting airplanes and routes, or your new pilots would be at ABX, with remaining ATI pilots seeing ABX rates or higher.

Ultimately, ATI's decision was ATI's decision. I'm not aboard with giving these guys trouble. I don't think that accomplishes anything meaningful and makes the workplace more stressful. As pilots we promote and organize more or less as kids do in a highschool lunchroom. We move impulsively, and we superimpose a veneer of rationality onto our truly impulsive and emotional decisions. I think all of us (this includes me personally) suffer from this to varying degrees. The solution is to acknowledge this and correct for it.

Decisions are algorithms we all apply using the information available to us. ATSG management won the information campaign. 1224 struggles with this. In fact, the information campaign often is won or lost on the effors of just a few individuals who may or may not hold significant office.

b707guy

I appreciate your perspective, Elevation, but I disagree with

While that's certainly something that could have happened, there's no way to say that that's what would have happened.

I do find it interesting where you said

Why did K4 make the "rare leap", when ATI didn't? At least, that's what I take to be the opinion of so many here. But, as an opinion, it's either uninformed, or just plain obstinate. We're really on pretty much the same playing field when comparing ATI's 757/767 with the 767 at K4. The detail differences become barely noticeable in the grand scheme for the +/- arguments. FedEx has a slightly different growth history to use them as a benchmark for any of us. UPS had a more similar model in the early days. But both became wholly owned and are an entirely different animal. None of us are there yet (despite the extent of our relative operations compared with theirs when each of them "made the leap"). As for "strategically necessary", ours was more tactical, as evidenced by the short duration. Don't think for a second that we've lost sight of Mars. The moon is a much better staging point for getting to Mars than burning up on reentry after a launch failure. It's a great springboard if things continue upward, and it's a great holding point if things go downhill. It's very likely that we'll be well into negotiating our next CBA before ABX or Atlas have TA'd much of anything. It's also very possible that some of us will look nothing like we do today.

ACMItrash

Coming from a guy who's screen name is never home! Keeping commuting on your day off sport! Hey can you trip trade your whole line if you like?

How are those 17 day in a row trips for the home life?

b707guy

You are truly amazing.

Commuting on a day off is possible, but very unlikely, and generally self-inflicted. For the umpteenth time.
Yes, the entire line can be trip traded. For the umpteenth time.
17-day trips? We wouldn't know. We don't have any 17 day trips. For the umpteenth time.

Most people throw out their broken records.

goinaround

Hey refresh the folks on the commute policy at ABX and tell me how you're not commuting on your day off?

Cujo665

Honestly, while the ATI contract was a very good gain for them, it came after a Kalitta and Omni ratified almost identical CBA’s.... then ATI came in with lower wages instead of at least a match. Still, in the grand scheme it was what the employer was willing to do. If that didn’t fix staffing and retention then they’d have to sweeten the deal later... which I’m told you guys have had several small improvements already. Collectively added to the original gains.... not a bad deal at all. Omni and Kalitta both had the advantage of not having sister companies to be threatened with whipsaw. We’ll see how Omni does next time under ATSG.

nitefr8dog

Well...when you bid one of the majority of our Amazon thrips that start with a commercial on the first day into position for starters...

NeverHome

Screen name was from my regional days of commuting long distances to a crap schedule. In that life I was gone about 85% or more.

Now I don’t commute at all. So whatever your smoking, probably best to seek help. Clearly you are very disconnected from the facts. Time to sober up there sport.

goinaround

So is the majority of your flying for Amazon? Or is it DHL and a TON of reserve lines with a 1 or 3 AM start?

Here's the offline commute policy:

The provisions of paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 of this Letter of Agreement shall apply to Crewmembers jumpseating on other CASS carriers provided that the Crewmember schedules his jumpseat at a time when there are at least two (2) back-up flights and the scheduled jumpseat is on a flight that is scheduled to arrive at least five (5) hours prior to his show time. The attempts to jumpseat on these flights must be verifiable.

I'm not great at math....but that sounds like day off commuting to me...