GEOFFREY

Upper management stated that they would do everything possible to tack flight qualified supervisors to the bottom of the seniority list.

Slice

Thanks......

SaltyDog

Don't think it could happen. According to the IPA Agreement it is not their decision alone.
" The Company retains all rights except as otherwise provided in this agreement, including, but not limited to, the promulgation and enforcement of any policies, procedures, and rules concerning crewmember conduct or the operation of its business, provided such policies, procedures or rules are not
contrary to the provisions of this Agreement and are not unreasonable, arbitrary, or discriminatory."

Even if they argued for stapling, counter argue that the stated position to tack you at the bottom of the list is contrary to the Agreement as being unreasonable,etc.

See Article 8 Section C that states:
" Seniority Accrual
1. Seniority shall begin on the date a crewmember is first employed by the Company as a crewmember and begins basic indoctrination or initial training, whichever first occurs and shall continue during such period of active employment"
But what does the agreement state is the definition of "crewmember"
Look at in Article 2

"Crewmember (excepting Management Crewmembers) - means the
Captains, First Officers, Professional Flight Engineers and Second
Officers and employed by the Company, who are currently on the
seniority list or will be added to the seniority list in accordance with this
Agreement."
It does not mention flight qualified supervisor crewmembers.

So if you and your counterparts are now legal to be represented by the IPA, would seem rational to use the agreement intent consistently, which would suggest date of hire.

More Background:
Article 8
SENIORITY
A. Seniority List
1. The United Parcel Service Crewmember Seniority List of December 10, 1991 shall be accepted as final and binding on all parties.
2. All crewmembers hired by the Company subsequently will be added to the bottom of the seniority list established above.

Again, IPA Agreement is date of hire at UPS as a crewmember through training. Since you and your counterparts would now be represented by the Agreement, tacking to the bottom would not be allowed under Article 1 as posted above because it would be "unreasonable, arbitrary, or discriminatory"
and not in the purview of management to make the placement.
But if that wasn't sufficient, the Agreement states:

B. Protests
1. Each crewmember, including a probationary crewmember, may
protest his alleged improper placement on the seniority list up
to sixty (60) days after his name initially appears on the new
seniority list.
2. The crewmember shall protest in writing to the Company any
alleged omission, or incorrect listing affecting his seniority on
the list. If a crewmember is not satisfied with the response
from the Company, he may grieve his position in accordance
with the grievance process provided in Article 7 of this
Agreement. The parties will accept the positions that are
awarded as a result of this process.



C. Seniority Accrual
1. Seniority shall begin on the date a crewmember is first
employed by the Company as a crewmember and begins basic
indoctrination or initial training, whichever first occurs and shall
continue during such period of active employment, except as
otherwise provided in this Article or elsewhere in this
Agreement. When two (2) or more crewmembers are
employed on the same date, they shall be placed on the
seniority list according to their age, i.e., the oldest crewmember
shall receive the more senior position on the list. Should two
(2) or more crewmembers have the same birthdate, they will be
placed on the seniority list, based on the last four (4) digits of
the crewmember’s social security number, the lower number
being the more senior. Seniority shall always be systemwide
seniority and shall not refer to seniority in status or equipment.

F. Loss of Seniority
Any crewmember, once having established a seniority date hereunder,
shall not lose that date except as provided in this Agreement. A
crewmember shall cease to have seniority and his employment with the
Company shall be terminated for all purposes when:
1. He voluntarily quits the Company’s employment, retires or
resigns;
2. He is discharged for just cause;
3. He is separated from employment in accordance with G.6.a.
and G.6.b. of this Article; (Deals with furlough and decline to return)
4. He fails to return from medical leave at the end of seven (7)
years; or
5. He is not offered recall within seven (7) years from the date of
furlough.

Interestingly, if you or your counterparts were ever in the IPA, the Agreement does not indicate that you technically lost that number according to Section F , 1-5, above. Hmmm.

BoynamedSue

that is under the section of furlough- i don't believe these fine folks that permantly gave up their senority would be covered.

also for fun reading in the contract- all above is for a senority crewmember. our non union supervisors are not senority.

read 1st paragraph under senority just for fun.

SaltyDog

BnS,
I included the first para. as well as the definitions. Included was the furlough provisions of loss of seniority Art 8. Section F.
The discussion I reponded to was the assertion that the company could simply tack the flight qualified supervisors to the bottom of the list should this accretion come to pass. They cannot unilaterally do that, labor history also suggests that is unlikely.

Slice

The best compromise I heard so far was DOH into Mgmt. Those hired off the street don't lose anything, those who left the IPA lie in the bed they made by losing some seniority on the list.

Trash Hauler 1

How about...No managers in my union. You made your bed, now sleep in it. I don't know you, but I can never trust you. Sorry, that's just the way it is. The only managers I want in my union are the ones we haven't hired.

TH1

Freightpuppy

TH,
That might be a good idea......anyone in management right NOW, stays that way but future managers go into the union. I wonder if that would be a good compromise.
My other thought is this....let's get them in under the thought that it will be DOH and once they are in, STAPLE THEIR A$$. I know, I'm evil but after all, how many times have they screwed us?

GEOFFREY

What about those management people who were hired as crewmembers when the Teamsters were here, and went into management prior to the IPA being organized?

Slice

I understand where you're coming from, however, what's to stop the company from hiring 1000 or more managers between now and the next round of negotiations? We need to get all flying back under the IPA. I don't think anyone on the line with disagree with that. The question is how?