Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Airline Pilot Forums > Cargo
FDX Trip Rig questions >

FDX Trip Rig questions

Notices
Cargo Part 121 cargo airlines

FDX Trip Rig questions

Old 12-09-2007, 09:39 AM
  #11  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Albief15's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Default

Careful here...I'm about to throw some praise out....

The trip rig fix added about an hour of pay to the weekend layover trips that populate the 727 bidpack. Not a "junior" trip, but not all out of the reach of some of average guys. I also see them in open time here and there. The more senior week long Indy/AFW/OAK turns gain about 2 hours.

So--there are some net gains on some trips--even if you drive the slave ship. That will also mean the same trip now takes a slightly bigger bite out of your vacation bank, so you may need to bid accordingly.

I was one of the guys clamoring to leave pay rates about the same and tweak the rigs last time. I still think a trip than crosses three days and pays 12 hours in pure BS. However, I am starting to think more like Deuce and say just up the rates next time... Whatever angle we go--it will need a lot of discussion.
Albief15 is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 03:01 PM
  #12  
Gets Weekends Off
 
TheBaron's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 608
Default

Originally Posted by mrzog2138 View Post
I don't know if you are calculating it correctly. Remember the Trip guarantee does capture the block hours above 10. It doesn't capture the hours between 8 and 10. Which is ridiculous. For example, MEM-KIX is 12+30. The trip guarantee captures the 2+30 above 10. After you fly the trip you will get an extra 2 hours of pay, not 4+30. And I thought this CBA was suppose to get rid of the ambiguity in the contract.
Yes sirree Bob, I understand that. The trip earns an extra :22 on the ANC-KIX leg, 2:00 on the KIX-MEM leg, 1:05 on the MEM-HNL leg, 2:00 on the HNL-SYD leg, and 1:38 on the HKG-ANC leg. That's an extra 7:05 on top of the 73:27 guarantee. The line also has a short 16:20 trip that earns an extra 1:44 for a PVG-ICN-ANC final leg for a total of 8:49 extra credit on an 89:47 trip. Pretty darn close to a 10% bonus (line 536 out of Anchorage.) Don't try to steal it from me. LOL
I'm actually holding trips where I will see a gain...I just don't think it's fair to everyone else in the group. Of course, I also don't think it is particularly fair that someone on the slave ship gets the same international over ride for flying Buffalo to Ottawa as I do flying into India or some of the other garden spots we hit. And while I'm at it, we need Pacific and Europe per diem rates like UPS has. $2.70 an hour doesn't cut it. And why is it Mecca has pop-corn and hot chocolate and we don't rate it?

Last edited by TheBaron; 12-09-2007 at 03:19 PM.
TheBaron is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 03:26 PM
  #13  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Default

I think it's because you're too big of a whiner.

They think the popcorn would be wasted, as you'd get it soggy with your tears.
Busboy is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 03:33 PM
  #14  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jun 2005
Position: FO
Posts: 104
Default

We have popcorn, we just have to go to NRT and then catch a bus for it... We should get our own tap though...
H
hschol is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 04:45 PM
  #15  
Gets Weekends Off
 
DLax85's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,189
Red face

Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
....That will also mean the same trip now takes a slightly bigger bite out of your vacation bank, so you may need to bid accordingly.....
How could we have missed this and not gotten similar per day ratio increases in the vacation and sick banks?

Needs to be an item for the next contract.
DLax85 is online now  
Old 12-09-2007, 04:52 PM
  #16  
Part Time Employee
 
MaxKts's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Dispersing Green House Gasses on a Global Basis
Posts: 1,918
Default

Originally Posted by DLax85 View Post
How could we have missed this and not gotten similar per day ratio increases in the vacation and sick banks?

Needs to be an item for the next contract.

Because the company wants to "optimize" our vacation but knows a frontal assault would be futile. So, their plan of attack is to slowly take a little here and there eventually reduce our vacation system down to their desired level. Kind of like how a deviatin bank is now based on "accepted fares" that they can't get when it comes time to actually buy the ticket
MaxKts is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 04:57 PM
  #17  
done, gone skiing
 
dckozak's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
Arrow Pay vs trip rig

Originally Posted by Albief15 View Post
..............However, I am starting to think more like Deuce and say just up the rates next time... Whatever angle we go--it will need a lot of discussion.
This rig vs rate debate has gone on (at FedEx) at least since before the first contract. I remember our nego chair (who name, at the moment escapes me) during a roadshow explain that in negotiations with the company various trip rigs were suggested, up to, I believe, 2.64:1 (that's nine hours of pay per day) to (which in a cost neutral environment) provide a lower hourly rate that we (would hope ) the company could hide as a effective pay raise because the published hourly would look low. The company didn't bite and in the end the union was offered a cost neutral 3.47:1 (the old rig, 7 hours per day) or 4:1 (what we took, until 01Jan08, the current rig). The MPDP also changed in lock step so hub turning pilots went from 3.5 hours per duty to 3 hours. The thinking of the NC, as explained at this meeting was, in taking the 6 hours a day (6 hrs per 24 TAFB or 6 hrs per hub turn) the hub turning pilots, flying the longer legs (over 3 hours to and or from a hub) and any hard time flying whether intl or dom, would benefit from more pay at a higher rate than the old 3.47:1 rig/MPDP. If you look at the pairings of longer hub turns you will see this to be the case, any MEM trip that out and backs or lays over to return the next hub turn (day or night), you will see pay over 6 hours. The short "easy" turns, with short block times default to 6 hours but the longer ones pay, in essence, hard time. Likewise, trips from MEM to STN, VCP and other "long" flights with minimum layovers which pay hard time, the effective pay is higher than if it was "cost neutral".

So, a long winded explanation with many sentences running on and a paragraph that is bigger than some short stories. The problem with taking the 4:1 rig/MPDP was we also accepted a pay rate that looked appreciably higher than before, even though we now, on average, "work" one hour less per day. Now when we try to compare ourselves to our peers (say, using the APC pay rate comparison) we look higher paid than we really are because most airlines don't use the 4:1 rig but something closer to the 3.47:1 we used before contract one. I don't know the UPS trip rig off hand, but I'm guess its either 3.5 or 3.75 to 1, which means for a given same hourly rate, they are paid for more hours than we are. The adjustment in the FedEx trip rig does provide a "hidden" pay increase for most intl pilots and some dom flying at FedEx. The fact that the MPDP wasn't adjusted too has been mentioned by several (I would guess Bus and slave ship drivers ) as to being unfair and a uneven windfall that is not shared amongst all at FedEx. Well prospective is in the eye of the beholder, if you divide the TAFB of hub turn trips with or without DH's, you will find that they paid more than if they were on trip rig. The MPDP provisions in our contract were held on to, even when the Co. tried to have us give them away. For the Dom pilot, do nightly or daily hub turns this has paid more, based on TAFB than most intl trips.

Now we are left trying to recover an industry comparable rig so our hourly rate reflects the true cost of doing business on a TAFB basis. No matter what we negotiate, if we cost neutral our pay (rates) we are only deluding ourselves when we degrade our rigs and accept a "industry leading" hourly pay rate.
dckozak is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 05:31 PM
  #18  
Gets Weekends Off
 
machz990's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 494
Default

Deleted. Duplicate post.
machz990 is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 05:35 PM
  #19  
Gets Weekends Off
 
machz990's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: 777 CAP
Posts: 494
Default

Originally Posted by dckozak View Post
This rig vs rate debate has gone on (at FedEx) at least since before the first contract. I remember our nego chair (who name, at the moment escapes me) during a roadshow explain that in negotiations with the company various trip rigs were suggested, up to, I believe, 2.64:1 (that's nine hours of pay per day) to (which in a cost neutral environment) provide a lower hourly rate that we (would hope ) the company could hide as a effective pay raise because the published hourly would look low. The company didn't bite and in the end the union was offered a cost neutral 3.47:1 (the old rig, 7 hours per day) or 4:1 (what we took, until 01Jan08, the current rig). The MPDP also changed in lock step so hub turning pilots went from 3.5 hours per duty to 3 hours. The thinking of the NC, as explained at this meeting was, in taking the 6 hours a day (6 hrs per 24 TAFB or 6 hrs per hub turn) the hub turning pilots, flying the longer legs (over 3 hours to and or from a hub) and any hard time flying whether intl or dom, would benefit from more pay at a higher rate than the old 3.47:1 rig/MPDP. If you look at the pairings of longer hub turns you will see this to be the case, any MEM trip that out and backs or lays over to return the next hub turn (day or night), you will see pay over 6 hours. The short "easy" turns, with short block times default to 6 hours but the longer ones pay, in essence, hard time. Likewise, trips from MEM to STN, VCP and other "long" flights with minimum layovers which pay hard time, the effective pay is higher than if it was "cost neutral".

So, a long winded explanation with many sentences running on and a paragraph that is bigger than some short stories. The problem with taking the 4:1 rig/MPDP was we also accepted a pay rate that looked appreciably higher than before, even though we now, on average, "work" one hour less per day. Now when we try to compare ourselves to our peers (say, using the APC pay rate comparison) we look higher paid than we really are because most airlines don't use the 4:1 rig but something closer to the 3.47:1 we used before contract one. I don't know the UPS trip rig off hand, but I'm guess its either 3.5 or 3.75 to 1, which means for a given same hourly rate, they are paid for more hours than we are. The adjustment in the FedEx trip rig does provide a "hidden" pay increase for most intl pilots and some dom flying at FedEx. The fact that the MPDP wasn't adjusted too has been mentioned by several (I would guess Bus and slave ship drivers ) as to being unfair and a uneven windfall that is not shared amongst all at FedEx. Well prospective is in the eye of the beholder, if you divide the TAFB of hub turn trips with or without DH's, you will find that they paid more than if they were on trip rig. The MPDP provisions in our contract were held on to, even when the Co. tried to have us give them away. For the Dom pilot, do nightly or daily hub turns this has paid more, based on TAFB than most intl trips.

Now we are left trying to recover an industry comparable rig so our hourly rate reflects the true cost of doing business on a TAFB basis. No matter what we negotiate, if we cost neutral our pay (rates) we are only deluding ourselves when we degrade our rigs and accept a "industry leading" hourly pay rate.
Good explanation and saved me some writing. Our current contract helped to restore some ground that was lost to international crewmembers from the previous contract. Most long international trips have at least two ocean crossing legs with 8-14 hours of block time. Trip rig washed out these trips to basically 6 hours per day. So a 10 day trip paid 60 hours even though the pairing contained some long hard-time legs. Take a look at all the majors. Where is the highest crew compensation? International widebody. This contract attempted to restore some of what was given up on the last contract. Compare that to someone flying ATL out-and-backs and getting paid 6 hours while only being gone for 5 hours. Most crewmembers here have the opportunity to upgrade to international widebody very quickly so if someone wants that compensation, bid it when you can hold it.

Now onto vacation which so many feel we got shorted with a day potentially worth 6.4 hours now instead of 6. Let's take a line that is 90 hours and works 15 days under the old rig. Now take a line under the new rig and keep it at 90 hours. Let's call it a single departure trip to keep it simple. With the new rig in order to keep the line at 90 hours you can only build the trip to 14 days. Take a look at your vacation bank in VIPS. It's a pot of time listed in hours. Each hour of vacation is one hour of compensation. If you knock either trip out in the example above the number of hours drained from your account is the same. However with the first example you are knocking out a 15 day trip and with the second example under the new rig, you are knocking out a 14 day trip. You get the same number of days off for the same amount of vacation hours used. If the company put more hours of vacation in your pot as some have eluded to, that would have been another XX hours of income at your hourly rate which equates to another raise, not a cost neutral adjustment.
machz990 is offline  
Old 12-09-2007, 05:45 PM
  #20  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Albief15's Avatar
 
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Default

Good discussions. I hope Tuesday to be asking for more help and insights. If not--I will be encouraging you to give the same info to CF.

Thanks for giving a $hit. It matters...
Albief15 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Laxrox43
Cargo
77
06-05-2008 08:28 AM
FlybyKnite
Cargo
67
11-18-2007 11:40 AM
CaptainGator
Cargo
77
10-13-2007 07:50 AM
viperdriver
Cargo
5
07-20-2007 01:29 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices