Fdx pbs
02-01-2015, 11:10 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by Essential power
Correct me if I am wrong. But, I have not flown or talked with any pilot that would like to see an increase in VTO lines. Period.
Do you bid VTO? Don't you see how they are? It's a crap shoot.
Put this issue too rest already.
Do you bid VTO? Don't you see how they are? It's a crap shoot.
Put this issue too rest already.
(..And it's not about being willing to just settle for another 3%)
It's about not introducing more opportunities for the company to schedule ambiguously.
...or head fake the bottom VTO holders by giving them zero trips, and filling their lines with R-days in a manner which does not match any existing reserve lines in the originally published bidpack
The company knows what training and vacation is occurring next month and can predict the number of trips which will be "knocked out" and "picked up" in the View/Add window, in a similar manner in which they already claim to predict the number of sick calls and use that to approve or deny Rday drop requests
Simple verbiage can be added which states when all Open time trips are exhausted during the VTO build, any remaining VTO lines will be filled by the VTO holders request of the existing reserve lines already published in that months bidpack
Think of it as a "Make Up" Reserve line bid
No special software to build --- just run a straight seniority bid of all the reserve lines again from the bidpack
Very transparent!
Then pilots have control of their R days, instead of schedulers assigning R days randomly to guys who actually wanted to fly trips
It effectively eliminates the company's incentive of putting too many VTO lines in the bidpack --- which they know will really end up being Reserve lines
Last edited by DLax85; 02-01-2015 at 11:23 AM.
02-01-2015, 11:19 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: MD-11 Captain
Posts: 4,304
I've not seen anything in writing from Management or the Negotiating committee about more VTO lines?
If it's true, it seems like a Management "back door" to PBS. I hope we're smart enough to see through this thinly veiled smoke screen? Why would we agree to less control over our schedule than we have now?
If it's true, it seems like a Management "back door" to PBS. I hope we're smart enough to see through this thinly veiled smoke screen? Why would we agree to less control over our schedule than we have now?
02-01-2015, 04:49 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Essential power
Correct me if I am wrong. But, I have not flown or talked with any pilot that would like to see an increase in VTO lines. Period.
Do you bid VTO? Don't you see how they are? It's a crap shoot.
Put this issue too rest already.
Do you bid VTO? Don't you see how they are? It's a crap shoot.
Put this issue too rest already.
I would not want more VTOs under the current rules either. In case you missed in the previous 37 times I said it. I have bid VTO will not bid it under the current rules, it used to be a pretty good deal.
Sure Ill put it to rest. But it aint up to me. Now pretend we arent talking more VTOs what would you like to see to improve scheuling, me:
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
No I want hard scheduling rules with financial fines to the pilot (not the union) when they cheat. I want hard contract language that says when they can and can't claim insufficient reserves. And if they add stbys to manipulate the system then they have to pay pilots to sit stby. I want real time trip trading. When I am the number 3 VTO I want to be able to build my schedule third and if it is all R Days I want to pick the R days from the available pool. To get that we will have to negotiate.
02-03-2015, 04:48 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 355
Originally Posted by DLax85
+1
(..And it's not about being willing to just settle for another 3%)
It's about not introducing more opportunities for the company to schedule ambiguously.
...or head fake the bottom VTO holders by giving them zero trips, and filling their lines with R-days in a manner which does not match any existing reserve lines in the originally published bidpack
The company knows what training and vacation is occurring next month and can predict the number of trips which will be "knocked out" and "picked up" in the View/Add window, in a similar manner in which they already claim to predict the number of sick calls and use that to approve or deny Rday drop requests
Simple verbiage can be added which states when all Open time trips are exhausted during the VTO build, any remaining VTO lines will be filled by the VTO holders request of the existing reserve lines already published in that months bidpack
Think of it as a "Make Up" Reserve line bid
No special software to build --- just run a straight seniority bid of all the reserve lines again from the bidpack
Very transparent!
Then pilots have control of their R days, instead of schedulers assigning R days randomly to guys who actually wanted to fly trips
It effectively eliminates the company's incentive of putting too many VTO lines in the bidpack --- which they know will really end up being Reserve lines
(..And it's not about being willing to just settle for another 3%)
It's about not introducing more opportunities for the company to schedule ambiguously.
...or head fake the bottom VTO holders by giving them zero trips, and filling their lines with R-days in a manner which does not match any existing reserve lines in the originally published bidpack
The company knows what training and vacation is occurring next month and can predict the number of trips which will be "knocked out" and "picked up" in the View/Add window, in a similar manner in which they already claim to predict the number of sick calls and use that to approve or deny Rday drop requests
Simple verbiage can be added which states when all Open time trips are exhausted during the VTO build, any remaining VTO lines will be filled by the VTO holders request of the existing reserve lines already published in that months bidpack
Think of it as a "Make Up" Reserve line bid
No special software to build --- just run a straight seniority bid of all the reserve lines again from the bidpack
Very transparent!
Then pilots have control of their R days, instead of schedulers assigning R days randomly to guys who actually wanted to fly trips
It effectively eliminates the company's incentive of putting too many VTO lines in the bidpack --- which they know will really end up being Reserve lines
I too have experienced getting a vto having asked for only the 3 days of memorial day weekend off, and got scheduled an 8 day trip across those days and 5 rdays. Only to find that another pilot junior to me, who had a vto, had those days off with a 6 day trip and 7 rdays. Futures couldn't explain, and had to ask the vendor in canada, and would get back to me. She told me by the contract, they must award larger trips values to the senior vto's, i.e. senior guy must have less rdays on his line than the junior guy- Regardless of what the senior guys requested. So she said I had fewer Rdays on my vto, than the junior guys vto. Even though he got the days off I wanted.
I asked for a cba reference, and she could not provide it other than her statement that "it's in the contract". My only conclusion is that contract must be between FDX & the (pbs) vto vendor.
This aspect of vto must be fixed in the cba, (I have written my reps on this -since 2010). When a senior guy's #1 request is for days off on a vto he is saying he will accept the puzzle results (iaw his 2nd and tertiary requests in seniority) as long as that #1 request is honored.
02-03-2015, 06:14 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...
When a monthly bid award is finished and all the hard lines, VTO lines and reserve lines are awarded....and there are still a few pilots left at the bottom without an award...then they will be awarded reserve lines that are duplicates of a reserve line already published in the bid pack
The schedulers cannot, and do not, just make up a new, unique reserve line
In effect, 2 pilots end up being awarded the exact same reserve line (...neither in a Pay Only status)
My idea is that if/when the company "advertises" an excessive number of VTO lines, which they eventually cannot fill with any trips, those remaining pilots get to bid (choose) from any of the originally published Reserve lines in seniority order
This would be a simple "Make Up Reserve Bid" that all VTO holders would enter, as a backstop to their VTO request
Then, in accordance with seniority, and full transparency, all of the "excess VTO holders" could control their schedules (IAW their seniority)
The numbers bidding in this Make Up Reserve Bid would be quite small relative to the number of original reserve lines available, thus the choices would be very good - R24, B Reserve, lines with holidays off, etc
This would disincentivize / solve two problems:
The company "advertising" more VTO lines than they can fill with trips
The bottom VTO holders getting 100% Reserve lines, but not really picking from the published Reserve lines
When a monthly bid award is finished and all the hard lines, VTO lines and reserve lines are awarded....and there are still a few pilots left at the bottom without an award...then they will be awarded reserve lines that are duplicates of a reserve line already published in the bid pack
The schedulers cannot, and do not, just make up a new, unique reserve line
In effect, 2 pilots end up being awarded the exact same reserve line (...neither in a Pay Only status)
My idea is that if/when the company "advertises" an excessive number of VTO lines, which they eventually cannot fill with any trips, those remaining pilots get to bid (choose) from any of the originally published Reserve lines in seniority order
This would be a simple "Make Up Reserve Bid" that all VTO holders would enter, as a backstop to their VTO request
Then, in accordance with seniority, and full transparency, all of the "excess VTO holders" could control their schedules (IAW their seniority)
The numbers bidding in this Make Up Reserve Bid would be quite small relative to the number of original reserve lines available, thus the choices would be very good - R24, B Reserve, lines with holidays off, etc
This would disincentivize / solve two problems:
The company "advertising" more VTO lines than they can fill with trips
The bottom VTO holders getting 100% Reserve lines, but not really picking from the published Reserve lines
02-03-2015, 06:54 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Originally Posted by DLax85
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...
When a monthly bid award is finished and all the hard lines, VTO lines and reserve lines are awarded....and there are still a few pilots left at the bottom without an award...then they will be awarded reserve lines that are duplicates of a reserve line already published in the bid pack
The schedulers cannot, and do not, just make up a new, unique reserve line
In effect, 2 pilots end up being awarded the exact same reserve line (...neither in a Pay Only status)
My idea is that if/when the company "advertises" an excessive number of VTO lines, which they eventually cannot fill with any trips, those remaining pilots get to bid (choose) from any of the originally published Reserve lines in seniority order
This would be a simple "Make Up Reserve Bid" that all VTO holders would enter, as a backstop to their VTO request
Then, in accordance with seniority, and full transparency, all of the "excess VTO holders" could control their schedules (IAW their seniority)
The numbers bidding in this Make Up Reserve Bid would be quite small relative to the number of original reserve lines available, thus the choices would be very good - R24, B Reserve, lines with holidays off, etc
This would disincentivize / solve two problems:
The company "advertising" more VTO lines than they can fill with trips
The bottom VTO holders getting 100% Reserve lines, but not really picking from the published Reserve lines
When a monthly bid award is finished and all the hard lines, VTO lines and reserve lines are awarded....and there are still a few pilots left at the bottom without an award...then they will be awarded reserve lines that are duplicates of a reserve line already published in the bid pack
The schedulers cannot, and do not, just make up a new, unique reserve line
In effect, 2 pilots end up being awarded the exact same reserve line (...neither in a Pay Only status)
My idea is that if/when the company "advertises" an excessive number of VTO lines, which they eventually cannot fill with any trips, those remaining pilots get to bid (choose) from any of the originally published Reserve lines in seniority order
This would be a simple "Make Up Reserve Bid" that all VTO holders would enter, as a backstop to their VTO request
Then, in accordance with seniority, and full transparency, all of the "excess VTO holders" could control their schedules (IAW their seniority)
The numbers bidding in this Make Up Reserve Bid would be quite small relative to the number of original reserve lines available, thus the choices would be very good - R24, B Reserve, lines with holidays off, etc
This would disincentivize / solve two problems:
The company "advertising" more VTO lines than they can fill with trips
The bottom VTO holders getting 100% Reserve lines, but not really picking from the published Reserve lines
02-03-2015, 07:02 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by DLax85
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...
When a monthly bid award is finished and all the hard lines, VTO lines and reserve lines are awarded....and there are still a few pilots left at the bottom without an award...then they will be awarded reserve lines that are duplicates of a reserve line already published in the bid pack
The schedulers cannot, and do not, just make up a new, unique reserve line
In effect, 2 pilots end up being awarded the exact same reserve line (...neither in a Pay Only status)
My idea is that if/when the company "advertises" an excessive number of VTO lines, which they eventually cannot fill with any trips, those remaining pilots get to bid (choose) from any of the originally published Reserve lines in seniority order
This would be a simple "Make Up Reserve Bid" that all VTO holders would enter, as a backstop to their VTO request
Then, in accordance with seniority, and full transparency, all of the "excess VTO holders" could control their schedules (IAW their seniority)
The numbers bidding in this Make Up Reserve Bid would be quite small relative to the number of original reserve lines available, thus the choices would be very good - R24, B Reserve, lines with holidays off, etc
This would disincentivize / solve two problems:
The company "advertising" more VTO lines than they can fill with trips
The bottom VTO holders getting 100% Reserve lines, but not really picking from the published Reserve lines
When a monthly bid award is finished and all the hard lines, VTO lines and reserve lines are awarded....and there are still a few pilots left at the bottom without an award...then they will be awarded reserve lines that are duplicates of a reserve line already published in the bid pack
The schedulers cannot, and do not, just make up a new, unique reserve line
In effect, 2 pilots end up being awarded the exact same reserve line (...neither in a Pay Only status)
My idea is that if/when the company "advertises" an excessive number of VTO lines, which they eventually cannot fill with any trips, those remaining pilots get to bid (choose) from any of the originally published Reserve lines in seniority order
This would be a simple "Make Up Reserve Bid" that all VTO holders would enter, as a backstop to their VTO request
Then, in accordance with seniority, and full transparency, all of the "excess VTO holders" could control their schedules (IAW their seniority)
The numbers bidding in this Make Up Reserve Bid would be quite small relative to the number of original reserve lines available, thus the choices would be very good - R24, B Reserve, lines with holidays off, etc
This would disincentivize / solve two problems:
The company "advertising" more VTO lines than they can fill with trips
The bottom VTO holders getting 100% Reserve lines, but not really picking from the published Reserve lines
02-03-2015, 07:06 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
I disagree
Think about it --- any bidding strategy a junior pilot uses is also available to all the pilots senior to him
If the company continued to advertise an excessive number of VTO lines and these bottom VTO lines became more "valuable", then senior guys would start bidding them & holding them
Of course, there would be some risk -- do you want a known Reserve line or a VTO line that may have trips or R days?
The risk/reward decision would be available to all pilots in seniority order if they chose that route
Additionally, the current method of awarding duplicate Reserve lines, when there is an excess of junior pilots, does not go back and retroactively check if any more senior reserve line holders would have preferred that particular duplicate line
Think about it --- any bidding strategy a junior pilot uses is also available to all the pilots senior to him
If the company continued to advertise an excessive number of VTO lines and these bottom VTO lines became more "valuable", then senior guys would start bidding them & holding them
Of course, there would be some risk -- do you want a known Reserve line or a VTO line that may have trips or R days?
The risk/reward decision would be available to all pilots in seniority order if they chose that route
Additionally, the current method of awarding duplicate Reserve lines, when there is an excess of junior pilots, does not go back and retroactively check if any more senior reserve line holders would have preferred that particular duplicate line
02-03-2015, 07:17 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,191
Originally Posted by FDXLAG
..If your going to change the system why not change the system so that we get more choices not less? Why can't a VTO holder build his on R line from the R days scheduling wants filled?
What makes us assume the R day process would be any better...or any more more transparent?
Additionally, the intent of VTO lines was for guys to get TRIPS, but in many seats the bottom half get ALL R-days
The company uses this as their "clean up" / "back stop" to give themselves scheduling flexibility thru Reserve lines they define just before the bid month starts
It lacks both definitive pilot control from the published bidpack and transparency
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