boxhauler

Falcon, Im not in favor of changing the rule. I've expressed that opinion to the union and my elected representatives in congress. But if the rule does change I wont have hold it against anyone who elects to continue to fly. Since you are not electing to upgrade, I dont think you should complain if you get frozen out for a time. Choices. I respect your concern for those on furlough and am sick of the name calling (Scab etc.) from others on this forum. It's not making Fedex guys look good.

Ranger

You raise a very interesting issue. I remember that last time that the "senior" guys did their rug pulling thing. It was called the B Scale. And when the junior guys finally got their recalls they pretty much started to vote out the "senior" guys from their union positions and return the favor.

What part of UNION don't we get?

Huck

I'm coming up on 5 years and I'm still 180 numbers from the left seat. I've discussed this before here- less and less guys are coming off the Boeing to the widebodies. The 727 is becoming a niche aircraft. I predict 6 years to get the bid, and another year to go to school. Yes I've got it bid at 100%.

Seniority rules, eh, Jetjok? How 'bout this - I will have the seniority to upgrade in a couple of years, and then you'll change the rule, and I'll lose that seniority. So maybe seniority isn't so sacred after all.

JJ I like you, I respect you, You're one of the good guys. But remember that while you're posting about the lovely semi-retired lifestyle you're enjoying on that panel - there's a guy just like you once were out there - a fighter guy maybe, maybe in his thirties, done his duty to his country in a war and now ready to get a stable job. Maybe he's got a kid or two and a wife that wants to stay home and raise them. And he's sitting on the sidelines, waiting for that seat of yours....

Albief15

I'm pretty disappointed in the whole thing, but here's what I am doing.

1. Resigned myself to either not upgrading to Capt for a good while or being very very junior for very very long time on the left seat.

2. Accepting the opportunity to continue to serve past 20 years--maybe even chase O-6 in the ANG. I enjoy what I do, think its important...and another angle is this age 60 thing WILL affect my earnings. The extra years of service in the military and (maybe) another promotion, while they won't offset the loss, will at least help make up the difference.. It will also give me a place to vector that "creative energy" since I probably won't be spending it in training anytime soon.

3. Continuing to enjoy outside interests outside of work--for fun and profit. Probably just a pipe dream, but currently doing some due dilegence on a commerical stable operation. Yeah...I'll be up to my ass in horsecrap and debt, but my girls will think I ROCK. Getting more involved in community and church leadership positions too...

I think you'll see a lot of guys at OUR company throw up their hands and try to find other ways to use their time and earn some money. Guys who were ready to walk from the Guard may stay a little longer, and I imagine we'll see more airplane dealer/mortgage broker/realtor/CPA/crashpad land baron business cards in the AOC as guys try their hands at different things. At other places.....like UAL, DAL, etc....I wouldn't be surprised to see some guys just flat out walk away and try something else. Being junior at a strong, growing company like ours is one thing, but sitting reserve on a payscale that is less than you made 8 years ago is probably just a bit more than some guys at other places are willing to take.

Been wrong before, and will be again....just my 2 cents....

Jetjok

Huck,

While not a subscriber of the mutual admiration society, I also think that you're a good guy. However, realize this: I am not the one that is changing the rule. If it does get changed, then I'll be a beneficiary of it, but I was not a part of the growing revolution to get it changed. As for guys complaining that they haven't upgraded to captain in 4 or 5 years, don't bother. Guys of my seniority sat in the back seat of the 727 for 4 or 5 years, because there were no upgrades to be had. Guys at some of the majors sat back there for 15 or 20 years. I don't feel that badly for someone whose gotten here two or three years ago and now feels that his progress is being impeded, and he won't be able to hold captain for another 2 years. As for guys getting out of the military with the expectation that their way is paved, it just ain't gonna happen. If that were the case, maybe we all should just step aside so that the guy hired yesterday can be a widebody captain tomorrow.

Huck, it's a very parochial issue, but I can tell you this, suggesting that someone over 60 be allowed to fly, but to be confined to the right or back seat is not the thing to do, simply because it flies in the face of seniority. If for no other reason that guys who are hanging out in the right or back seat would be complaining about the same issues.

Daniel Larusso

Seniority rules, but only to a point. There must be sensibility and balance. Otherwise why not give the senior pilots free or close to free health care and the subsidize it by have the junior pilots pay higher premiums or have no coverage initially? Why not make senior lines have 100hr credit and 20 days off and junior ones 35 hours and 10 days off? How about seniority based crew meals? When you go too far astray with 'seniority' as your cloak some nasty things came happen. B scales, pilots left on the street an extra 5-7 years to line the pockets of the senior, generous A fund rules that ultimately ruin the fund at the first sign of trouble, pilots getting to 'retire; and then come back to fly the right seat, pilots forced into a wholly owned subsidiary carrier with substandard work rules only to have it sold off to facilitate a better deal for the senior, pilots forced to 'interview' at the regional carrier that got their old job only because the senior looked the other way on those contract provisions, senior widebody pilots retaining their work rules at the expense of anarchy on the narrowbody fleets, senior pilots selling their souls for a flowthrough they knew would only work for them, senior RJ pilots selling out payrates for the hope of bigger a/c that the junior would never touch, those same pilots voting for a payraise that doesn't even apply across the board to the junior fleet, and so on and so on. Did that sentence run on enough? I suppose we should just change something everytime the top 5-10% deem it necessary. Seniority's limits have to be tempered at times for the betterment of the whole.

As far as being incredulous at the notion that a junior pilots motivation for keeping the age 60 rule as being financial, get real. Sounds like FDX is the only airline you've worked at after a career in the military-a good thing. However if you fly or talk to the pilots at the airlines that support this change the most like Southwest and the other carriers that had no A fund to begin with you will find your argument quite silly. I have flown at one of those carriers and flown with many Age 65 proponents. To a man their motivations have been purely financial. Some to cover for mistakes, some just outright greed like the one who lamented mistakes or not having planned properly or many who were simply greedy. My favorite is still the one who cried about needing 65 because he had no A fund out one side of his mouth, while regaling me with all sorts of advice on how to make my 401k portfolio as big as his and about the 1mil+ piece of property he was given that he didn't want out the other side. Funny he didn't like my suggestion that the property was a good place to start looking for those additional funds. Bottom line, this is just as much about money for the over 60 guys as it is for the under 60.

I will give you age 60+ guys this though: you know how to couch your argument in effective talking points. Don't talk about how much more money you stand to gain, talk about age discrimination and personalize it with stories of pensions robbed/lost even though your pilot group(SWA, JetBlue, for example) never had one in the first place. It has been effective with the media/gov't leaning your way thus far and ALPA's lame handling of the announcement thus far is another score. Perhaps Huck has the right idea-maybe the Age 60 people should start personalizing the furloughees that get screwed by this. Show their kids, dashed dreams, pittance if anything from the PBGC and juxtapose that against those who want the rule change. We live in a talking point society these days and safety as a main talking point isn't working.

Daniel Larusso

Of course some of those people who just got 'here or there' in the last few years had previous careers at other carriers some even longer than yours at FedEx. Not that I don't agree with point about upgrades not being guaranteed at a given time, I do. Something is always changing in this business largely out of control-I just have a problem with shooting ourselves in the foot all for a vocal few. The same vocal few who will then turn around and lead the charge for even higher widebody payscales, higher A fund payouts v. higher B fund contributions. Additionally they will do nothing to correct the shift in the earnings curve this will create. Look at JetBlue and Airtran. They have weak payrates on the FO side because their senior folk sold the rationale that everyone would be a Captain quickly so why waste capital on FO wages just add it to the Captain side. Too bad poor planning, mergers, and the reality of slowed growth came about and now there are people facing quite a bit more time at the lower pay scales. Yet there is no movement to correct this imbalance other than a little pity b/c the senior have theirs and aren't about to correct their snow job. Wait and see what happens when the first person(could be me!) suggests that FO payscales be increased at greater percentage relative to Captains in the 1st age 65 contract or that the 15year max occur at say year 10 for FO's.

Falconjet

Jet: I haven't heard anybody on the board complain about their position at FedEx in regard to upgrades. Not one. I am happy to sit in the back and pay my dues until 60 and go. I don't hold it against you that you are sticking around in the back seat, that is part of our CBA and you have earned your spot. I don't see myself doing it, and I can't understand why some do, but that is none of my business.

But the pro change crowd simply refuses to admit that raising the age will be a windfall for them and a loss for those not already in a Captain's seat. It will delay progression for junior pilots and recalls for furloughed pilots. That is a fact, and not one of the pro-change guys will admit that.

All the anti-change guys (at least this one) want is the same opportunity to progress as you and every other pilot for the past 48 years had. That is all, the same. Not better, not faster, just the SAME.

Changing the law is discriminatory to anybody who isn't in a Captain's seat right now, yet the older guys are only worried about discrimination against them.

There are no snowy white characters in this debate, everybody has some baggage to carry, but the pro-change crowd will not even allow the possibility that they have much more to gain from the change than the guys who are sitting on the sidelines waiting their turn. That is the most frustrating part of the debate for me.

FJ

MaydayMark

Actually ... I've said numerous times that it's about all that stuff AND it would hold back my seat progression. Maybe your advanced age (alzheimers?) is causing reading comprehension problems?


Now that's hilarious ... THE guy who benefits the most at the expense of others (assuming the age gets raised) telling junior guys it's all about them. Interesting you don't see the humor in that. Please keep writing from the nursing home anyway Gramps.

And remember, the only other seat in the jet that sits sideways ... FLUSHES!

Regards ...

Mark

FDXer

This sounds great until a senior F/O over 60 flies with a junior Captain over 60 and guess whose going to get bumped since only one can be over 60. The more senior F/O will be sitting SUB in Memphis while the junior Captain is flying his trip with a F/O under 60. This "I'm senior to you" argument is getting old. If you confine all the retreads to one seat--whichever seat (I'm not going to touch this can of worms)--it sure seems like it would be easier to schedule and match up crews.