The other Atlas thread
07-04-2014, 05:19 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
I don't recall claiming to be superior, just to have been to the rodeo more than a few times and having the scars to remind myself about what works and what doesn't. It leads you to pay close attention to the words of Santayana, "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
That said, given the usual tactics of how many pilots view the approach to negotiations and dealing with management and how they are going to achieve their goals, it's pretty clear that not following the same failed practices of other carriers has worked fairly well here. And there are more than a few here who recall the strife created by certain individuals who insisted on doing things the way it was done elsewhere; actions that delayed the JCBA by several years and had a negative impact on the potential for even better gains.
From the beginning in the 90's, through a failed T/A to a ratified one, a bankruptcy, strike, merger and the JCBA, the pilots never lost on pay or benefits. They beat back AACS, which would have killed every job here and in the process got back profit sharing, stock options and helped unseat a management and reseat a new one with a new Board of Directors.
They cracked a code that you may or may not like. And yes, there are some here who sadly continue to believe that the "mission" is the only thing that matters.
That said, the question that needs to be answered by those with the "this is how we did it at Brand X" and "we want what we want when we want it" is whether or not to consider Santayana's words or to accept that constructive dialog may take a bit longer, but yields better long term outcomes.
That said, given the usual tactics of how many pilots view the approach to negotiations and dealing with management and how they are going to achieve their goals, it's pretty clear that not following the same failed practices of other carriers has worked fairly well here. And there are more than a few here who recall the strife created by certain individuals who insisted on doing things the way it was done elsewhere; actions that delayed the JCBA by several years and had a negative impact on the potential for even better gains.
From the beginning in the 90's, through a failed T/A to a ratified one, a bankruptcy, strike, merger and the JCBA, the pilots never lost on pay or benefits. They beat back AACS, which would have killed every job here and in the process got back profit sharing, stock options and helped unseat a management and reseat a new one with a new Board of Directors.
They cracked a code that you may or may not like. And yes, there are some here who sadly continue to believe that the "mission" is the only thing that matters.
That said, the question that needs to be answered by those with the "this is how we did it at Brand X" and "we want what we want when we want it" is whether or not to consider Santayana's words or to accept that constructive dialog may take a bit longer, but yields better long term outcomes.
Disregard the bait.
Nothing to see here.
Lets move along.
07-04-2014, 07:19 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 767 CA
Posts: 217
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
You shouldn't make foolish assumptions. The current contract is an improvement on the past and a stepping stone to a better one. Since you have no idea what was fought for and gained in the past, you have no idea what can be gained if it's approached the right way.
07-04-2014, 08:35 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by DC8 Driver
You think the current contract is an improvement on the past? speak for yourself. Maybe an improvement from your past, not mine. I had a much better quality of life when I was flying for Polar before the merger. Sure, I make a few more bucks; but, I honestly feel like an abused prostitute at the end of 17 days making that extra money.
Bobb had the option of merging at a time when the airline and industry were rocking profits. He declined, saying he wanted to negotiate his own deal. He was handed the same pile of money that Atlas' MEC was and was told to divide it however they wanted. He could have opted to strengthen areas of the CBA that would have then allowed both sides to sit down with management with two contracts of relatively equal strength; one with better pay and one with better work rules, that would have led to negotiating for an even better combined CBA.
He didn't want that. He went into the first meeting after the merger was announced and said to the new brand new CEO that since he was sitting next to certain people, he already considered him a liar and nothing would change that. He also said he would never wear an Atlas uniform.
He wanted to strike instead because he was convinced that he bring Atlas management to it's knees in 48 hours, crush the Atlas pilots, get Polar spit out and survive as a 5 airplane, stand alone scheduled carrier. He blew up what you had and you got work rules imposed. The resulting delay led to negotiations for a JCBA in an environment that was not as favorable. It also would have meant that had the JCBA was negotiated back then (2007), the pilots would have been negotiating a first agreement PAST the JCBA when it was done, and now be planning a third CBA negotiation...with much better rules and rates than exist now.
I would assume that like me, you don't want to rehash those wounds. My point has been that if we hope to move forward, we need to learn from the past and understand what works and what doesn't. We saw what happened in the past, do we want to go through that again or do it better?
07-12-2014, 09:38 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 767 Captain
Posts: 335
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
The current contract is an improvement on the past . . .
HOWEVER, unless you were a Captain when the 767's first rolled out, love to outbase (which is a whole other can of worms saving the company), or pick up open time the majority of the Atlas W-2's went down. Not up. Especially with the new profit sharing rules, the hike in premiums for the insurance, loss of PBS, loss of banking vacation, loss of sick time accrual and endless banking, loss of cashing out at retirement, drop in monthly gurantee. I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of for now. The only improvement I see is for management saving more money for their bonuses.
Again, please educate me/us on how this contract was an improvement as I'm not here to "poke people in the eye with a stick" but discussing these things will hopefully get people thinking for the next contract.
07-17-2014, 11:36 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 767 CA
Posts: 217
Originally Posted by chip1
Too bad this thread kinda died. It was getting great!
And ATC, you throwing around Bob's name and trashing him on a public forum is bad form and shows your level of class which isn't saying much.
Peace out.
07-17-2014, 12:16 PM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Knuckle-dragging line pilot
Posts: 943
Originally Posted by Ar Pilot
How much do you guys generally block/credit in a 30 day period?
We've been busier lately - lots of open time. Historical average on the 767 over the past three years? probably 72 hours.
07-20-2014, 04:49 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,075
This ATCsaidDoWhat guy is the same guy who said the Omni TA was a good deal.
Kinda funny how the TA passed when everyone you talk to says they voted against it.
Just sayin'
Kinda funny how the TA passed when everyone you talk to says they voted against it.
Just sayin'
Last edited by Hetman; 07-20-2014 at 05:03 PM.
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