Compass Updates 2: Revenge of the Sit
03-18-2019, 12:47 PM
#1831
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,499
Originally Posted by week
Now all of us have no shot at moving on to F9 outside of a tiny and distant flow window. With their new pay rates, you would have seen normal attrition of 2-5 a month to them without the flow...... not 24 a year with the flow
With current attrition, that is a COMPLETE TURNOVER of personnel every 675/240 years, basically two years and ten months. That's two years and ten months from now our junior FO, assuming he or she hasn't already gone somewhere else, can flow to F9.
That doesn't strike me as either particularly distant or tiny.
And I remind everyone that retirements at the legacies are increasing for the next 4-5 years.
03-18-2019, 02:08 PM
#1832
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by Excargodog
Setting aside the fact that two a month IS 24 a year, a not altogether tiny number for a group that routinely has an attrition of 240 a year, I would remind you that our current pilot group is - what 675 or so?
With current attrition, that is a COMPLETE TURNOVER of personnel every 675/240 years, basically two years and ten months. That's two years and ten months from now our junior FO, assuming he or she hasn't already gone somewhere else, can flow to F9.
That doesn't strike me as either particularly distant or tiny.
And I remind everyone that retirements at the legacies are increasing for the next 4-5 years.
With current attrition, that is a COMPLETE TURNOVER of personnel every 675/240 years, basically two years and ten months. That's two years and ten months from now our junior FO, assuming he or she hasn't already gone somewhere else, can flow to F9.
That doesn't strike me as either particularly distant or tiny.
And I remind everyone that retirements at the legacies are increasing for the next 4-5 years.
Pilot group is closer to 740
240 a year attrition is very optimistic, and a portion of that is junior-mid level FO’s.
And as far as that flow window, yes it is tiny. You get 1 shot when your number is called or you defer it an entire year. So either you take it when they email you or you push it yet another year down the road. Not an option either, with dl contacts up July 2020.
Again, I’m not saying this is awful, I’m just saying we are better off without it, and it’s a major blow to anyone that was looking to go from here to F9. They provide pay and benefits that are not that far off mainline, and I think it’s not a good thing to have a contract that says “you cant hire me”
03-18-2019, 06:15 PM
#1833
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 516
Originally Posted by buddies8
Outsider question, did your union agree to the F9 flow and did they sign the agreement? If not then cpz and f9 cannot restrict hiring cpz pilots outside of flow, its violation of federal law.
If that's the case though, it'll be curious to see if the union even challenges it.
03-19-2019, 05:42 AM
#1834
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 531
Originally Posted by morerightrudder
I'll defer to someone higher up in the union hierarchy, but the union folks I know did not know about the flow until it was about to be announced.
If that's the case though, it'll be curious to see if the union even challenges it.
If that's the case though, it'll be curious to see if the union even challenges it.
03-19-2019, 07:30 AM
#1835
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,499
Originally Posted by morerightrudder
I'll defer to someone higher up in the union hierarchy, but the union folks I know did not know about the flow until it was about to be announced.
If that's the case though, it'll be curious to see if the union even challenges it.
If that's the case though, it'll be curious to see if the union even challenges it.
Not sure it is challengeable - assuming that's even a word.
F9 has broad discretion in hiring and unless they are violating some federal law for a protected class (which regional pilots as a group aren't) I don't think you can touch them. As for TSH, I doubt the contract even mentions conspiring with a major to constrain hiring, sort of a reverse scope clause really. I mean you can always sue if you want to pay the lawyers for their time, but I'm not sure there is any great prospects for benefitting by the suit. Nor is it really clear that the pilot group as a whole would be damaged since the number able to flow exceeds the historic hiring from Compass of F9 pilots.
Take it up with ALPA HQ maybe? Frontier is ALPA too.
03-19-2019, 07:50 AM
#1836
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 531
“Exceeds the historic F9 hiring of compass pilots”
You mean before they doubled their pay and got a new contract providing better QOL? Or before they planned to double their fleet at a record pace?
Without this “flow agreement”, you’d see a small handful of compass pilots leaving for F9 every month.
You mean before they doubled their pay and got a new contract providing better QOL? Or before they planned to double their fleet at a record pace?
Without this “flow agreement”, you’d see a small handful of compass pilots leaving for F9 every month.
03-19-2019, 08:02 AM
#1837
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,499
Originally Posted by Slowhawk
“Exceeds the historic F9 hiring of compass pilots”
You mean before they doubled their pay and got a new contract providing better QOL? Or before they planned to double their fleet at a record pace?
Without this “flow agreement”, you’d see a small handful of compass pilots leaving for F9 every month.
You mean before they doubled their pay and got a new contract providing better QOL? Or before they planned to double their fleet at a record pace?
Without this “flow agreement”, you’d see a small handful of compass pilots leaving for F9 every month.
03-19-2019, 08:21 AM
#1838
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 570
Originally Posted by Excargodog
Not denying any if that. Just looking at it like the lawyers would. Like I said, F9 is ALPA too. We probably ought to talk to the national and see what leverage if any we might have here. It's clear that AA has for years used their flow to staff their WOs. AND THROTTLE THAT FLOW TO SUIT THEMSELVES. What legal options exist for us (if any), I simply don't know, but it seems that ALPA would be the ones to ask.
03-19-2019, 08:46 AM
#1839
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Position: Taco Rocket Operator
Posts: 2,485
Originally Posted by week
Would love to read the fine print on this. IMHO it’s an obstacle to our career progression. I certainly would have voted no. Now all of us have no shot at moving on to F9 outside of a tiny and distant flow window. With their new pay rates, you would have seen normal attrition of 2-5 a month to them without the flow...... not 24 a year with the flow
If an agreement like this was signed with DL, compass pilots would be ramming down the doors of building C with pitchforks and torches. Why should F9 be different?
If an agreement like this was signed with DL, compass pilots would be ramming down the doors of building C with pitchforks and torches. Why should F9 be different?
So this is apparently an internal decision at F9 based on language in the agreement and has nothing to do with ALPA. The flow was negotiated between both companies and ALPA was not involved.
03-19-2019, 08:48 AM
#1840
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,499
Originally Posted by Taco280AI
But AA also hires their wholly owned outside of the flow while this arrangement says we cannot be hired outside the flow.
Simply ranting on APC that it is unfair may be entirely true but it is unlikely to be helpful. Besides, we pay dues for these people to help us with contract issues. And if there’s nothing that can currently do this still might be something we will want to address in the next TA.
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