DALPA C19 Survey
08-31-2018 | 08:22 PM
#71
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,252
Likes: 95
From: DAL 330
If you’re one of the guys approaching 65 years old, you have had the opportunity to add an additional 5 years at the top of our pay scales to your bank accounts. You’ve made an additional $250,000+ in 401k contributions alone over that additional 5 years. In today’s environment you’ve also made an additional $150,000 over the same time period in profit sharing alone. That’s $400,000 NOT INCLUDING YOUR SALARY!
The pension is gone. A thing of the past. Our 16% DC may not be there as Denny said for the next 25+ years either if the economy takes a turn. What Delta pilot is hurting retirement wise at this time? Even with the math above + what you have saved in the past should be plenty. Sell your boat.
The pension is gone. A thing of the past. Our 16% DC may not be there as Denny said for the next 25+ years either if the economy takes a turn. What Delta pilot is hurting retirement wise at this time? Even with the math above + what you have saved in the past should be plenty. Sell your boat.
I get where you are coming from and generally agree with you. I find many Senior Pilot claims of future pauperism hard to take, but comments like "sell your boat" just diminish your credibility.
I also agree with much of what is bolded above but you left out some background information. Lets revisit profit sharing. When DAL Pilots took onerous pay and work rule cuts we were given our current PS system - in case DAL was to become profitable again it would automatically kick in with a little $$$. Well guess what? DAL become profitable beyond managements wildest dreams and we now have the most lucrative PS in the industry. A PS payout that all DAL Pilots enjoy, not just those Pilots who made the sacrifices.
So for all the guys who were not on the property during the times of these sacrifices, be sure to thank the Pilots, including the "deadzoners," who made the sacrifices that enabled our current PS program.
In other words the whole topic is much more complicated and nuanced then many acknowledge. Foolish comments like "sell your boat" are just as bad as the senior guys saying they are willing to sell Scope for a DB. Neither comments help the Pilots at all.
We can either come together as a group - to the benefit of all Pilots or we can be divisive to the benefit of management.
Scoop
08-31-2018 | 09:33 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,971
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From: Kickin’ Back
I've had an epiphany!!! I've solved all our problems! We do this and I won't care about the retirement...
Since profit sharing was acquired in our contract for all the pay and work rules sacrificed in bankruptcy, we should redirect the pilot profit sharing pool to those who sacrificed 46% pay and numerous work rules. Isn't it only fair? Those coming after didn't sacrifice a thing. They were hired knowing what the pay and work rules were. Kinda like when I was hired under a 5 year B-Scale.
Problem solved.
All TIC of course.......but is it?
Denny
Since profit sharing was acquired in our contract for all the pay and work rules sacrificed in bankruptcy, we should redirect the pilot profit sharing pool to those who sacrificed 46% pay and numerous work rules. Isn't it only fair? Those coming after didn't sacrifice a thing. They were hired knowing what the pay and work rules were. Kinda like when I was hired under a 5 year B-Scale.
Problem solved.
All TIC of course.......but is it?
Denny
08-31-2018 | 09:39 PM
#73
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Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Kickin’ Back
One's perspective is based on one's experiences. I certainly hope your experiences are all good ones. For us older guys, they haven't always been rosy...
Denny
09-01-2018 | 12:50 AM
#74
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Joined: Feb 2008
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American management was quite surprised when the PBGC actually said no. During the years when USAir, UAL and DAL lost their retirements the head of the PBGC was quite receptive to accepting almost any plan presented. In 2008 we had a new administration come in and with that new Admin came a new head of the PBGC, as the PBGC is hybrid government/corporate agency. When AMR filed with a lot of cash the new head of PBGC said, “prove you can’t reorganize with with your pension obligations.” Here we are today. Politics matter.
You are correct that if we had a new qualified plan that was someday terminated it would go to the PBGC. BUT, and this is a big *******ing BUT, once an individual has reached the PBGC max from one (or more) plan(s), that individual get ZERO more dollars from the PBGC regardless of how many more plans are turned over to them and what that individual would be owed. This is one of the reasons this “older”pilot does not want a new DB plan.
You are correct that if we had a new qualified plan that was someday terminated it would go to the PBGC. BUT, and this is a big *******ing BUT, once an individual has reached the PBGC max from one (or more) plan(s), that individual get ZERO more dollars from the PBGC regardless of how many more plans are turned over to them and what that individual would be owed. This is one of the reasons this “older”pilot does not want a new DB plan.
09-01-2018 | 04:09 AM
#76
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 5,128
Likes: 91
After actually being involved in legitimate polling, I can tell you one thing... These guys are going to have their hands full at the table unless they do a lot of follow up polling that narrows the priorities. (Exclusive of the DB/DC issue)
Right now I bet 90 percent of the questions are being answered “extremely important.”
Right now I bet 90 percent of the questions are being answered “extremely important.”
I'm sorry to say I don't get all the angst about this survey or the MEC. There are clearly a lot of pilots who want to recover some of their lost retirement. I would too if the company snatched over a million and then turned around to reward shareholders during our windfall.
If I were a rep, this kind of polling is exactly what I'd do to investigate if it's a vocal minority and to what degree... and I'd also release the results so everyone knows they're actually doing the pilots' bidding. IMHO we should all chill out a bit until we have a sense of the openers.
09-01-2018 | 04:31 AM
#77
Roll’n Thunder
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,123
Likes: 543
From: Pilot
There's no way I'm only in a 10% minority who put almost nothing on that survey as "extremely important". And I'm a big fan of the questions that had us divvy up our priorities by percentages. These guys understand you can't have everyone firewall everything and call it effective polling.
I'm sorry to say I don't get all the angst about this survey or the MEC. There are clearly a lot of pilots who want to recover some of their lost retirement. I would too if the company snatched over a million and then turned around to reward shareholders during our windfall.
If I were a rep, this kind of polling is exactly what I'd do to investigate if it's a vocal minority and to what degree... and I'd also release the results so everyone knows they're actually doing the pilots' bidding. IMHO we should all chill out a bit until we have a sense of the openers.
I'm sorry to say I don't get all the angst about this survey or the MEC. There are clearly a lot of pilots who want to recover some of their lost retirement. I would too if the company snatched over a million and then turned around to reward shareholders during our windfall.
If I were a rep, this kind of polling is exactly what I'd do to investigate if it's a vocal minority and to what degree... and I'd also release the results so everyone knows they're actually doing the pilots' bidding. IMHO we should all chill out a bit until we have a sense of the openers.
09-01-2018 | 04:35 AM
#78
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 833
Likes: 5
From: Captain
There's no way I'm only in a 10% minority who put almost nothing on that survey as "extremely important". And I'm a big fan of the questions that had us divvy up our priorities by percentages. These guys understand you can't have everyone firewall everything and call it effective polling.
I'm sorry to say I don't get all the angst about this survey or the MEC. There are clearly a lot of pilots who want to recover some of their lost retirement. I would too if the company snatched over a million and then turned around to reward shareholders during our windfall.
If I were a rep, this kind of polling is exactly what I'd do to investigate if it's a vocal minority and to what degree... and I'd also release the results so everyone knows they're actually doing the pilots' bidding. IMHO we should all chill out a bit until we have a sense of the openers.
I'm sorry to say I don't get all the angst about this survey or the MEC. There are clearly a lot of pilots who want to recover some of their lost retirement. I would too if the company snatched over a million and then turned around to reward shareholders during our windfall.
If I were a rep, this kind of polling is exactly what I'd do to investigate if it's a vocal minority and to what degree... and I'd also release the results so everyone knows they're actually doing the pilots' bidding. IMHO we should all chill out a bit until we have a sense of the openers.
How it is supposed to work is that the MEC and negotiators tell the professional pollster what information they are looking to get from the pilot group and then the pollster creates the questions and then interprets/provides the data. In this case (this is not hearsay as I have seen it up close and personal) the reps are not getting the result they want so they start writing the questions. “You want the pony and the new car right?”
This is not to say that the reps should not have input etc, but it shouldn’t be a Fox/CNN news poll either. Some want professional negotiators instead of having “pilots do it”, but in this case we have a professional and yet we have reps pushing us towards a more unscientific result as they are non professionals in this area.
09-01-2018 | 05:03 AM
#80
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,869
Likes: 188
I guess some of us have an issue with it, not because they are trying to find out what the priorities are, but how it seems like they are trying to drive the priorities. (I have no problem with the percentage portion)
How it is supposed to work is that the MEC and negotiators tell the professional pollster what information they are looking to get from the pilot group and then the pollster creates the questions and then interprets/provides the data. In this case (this is not hearsay as I have seen it up close and personal) the reps are not getting the result they want so they start writing the questions. “You want the pony and the new car right?”
This is not to say that the reps should not have input etc, but it shouldn’t be a Fox/CNN news poll either. Some want professional negotiators instead of having “pilots do it”, but in this case we have a professional and yet we have reps pushing us towards a more unscientific result as they are non professionals in this area.
How it is supposed to work is that the MEC and negotiators tell the professional pollster what information they are looking to get from the pilot group and then the pollster creates the questions and then interprets/provides the data. In this case (this is not hearsay as I have seen it up close and personal) the reps are not getting the result they want so they start writing the questions. “You want the pony and the new car right?”
This is not to say that the reps should not have input etc, but it shouldn’t be a Fox/CNN news poll either. Some want professional negotiators instead of having “pilots do it”, but in this case we have a professional and yet we have reps pushing us towards a more unscientific result as they are non professionals in this area.
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