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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Delta (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/)
-   -   Operation is running on red line (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/123027-operation-running-red-line.html)

sailingfun 08-09-2019 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 2867382)
Kudos for section 23 experts like tunes to helping get guys paid when they should instead of arguing against it! :cool:
I have never argued against guys getting paid when they should. What I have stated is that if a rotation is cancelled prior to being awarded there is no pay protection. I suspect Tunes is leaving something out like the trip was actually awarded to the incorrect pilot and was operating at the time of the award.

3 green 08-09-2019 03:41 AM
Scheduling is frequently covering trips illegally, and it is up to us to catch them. When you get a reroute try to see if the rerouted segment was known about for 14 or more hours out, If so, it is illegal(unless they could not position a pilot to cover that segment)..There are many other illegal reroutes happening but this is the most common that I see. Also does anyone think they will magically fix the Acars notification system concerning FDP extensions once the busy summer flying is over? Sure worked out well for mgmt pushing this back until the summer flying is over.

tunes 08-09-2019 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2867464)
I have never argued against guys getting paid when they should. What I have stated is that if a rotation is cancelled prior to being awarded there is no pay protection. I suspect Tunes is leaving something out like the trip was actually awarded to the incorrect pilot and was operating at the time of the award.
lets recap:
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2867464)
What I have stated is that if a rotation is cancelled prior to being awarded there is no pay protection.
false
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 2867464)
I suspect Tunes is leaving something out like the trip was actually awarded to the incorrect pilot and was operating at the time of the award.
no, i said if they go back because they skipped a step of coverage or passed over a pilot in a step of coverage, there is no pay protection if they fix it per the PWA reference I provided. You said that you are always pay protected if a trip is on your line, that is factually incorrect.

Originally Posted by 3 green (Post 2867477)
Scheduling is frequently covering trips illegally, and it is up to us to catch them. When you get a reroute try to see if the rerouted segment was known about for 14 or more hours out, If so, it is illegal(unless they could not position a pilot to cover that segment)..There are many other illegal reroutes happening but this is the most common that I see. Also does anyone think they will magically fix the Acars notification system concerning FDP extensions once the busy summer flying is over? Sure worked out well for mgmt pushing this back until the summer flying is over.
yes, the key to 23.L.4.note is that they have to be able to get another pilot there to cover it with legal rest/turn times. Not a specific pilot, just have the ability to do it. If there is a 'hook leg' (the leg inside 14 hours) and the only thing outside the 14 hours is a deadhead that pays every time, there is no requirement to see if a pilot could get there. The payday is when there is no hook. You then get assignment pay for the ‘created rotation’. For example I worked a ‘no hook’ 23.L.4 note last week where the pilot had no legs inside 14 hours but 1 sub 2 hour leg outside of it. Because of how it was structured to get a pilot there to cover it it became a 2 day 10:30 rotation since a layover would have been involved. Original pilot will now get 21:00 extra (10:30 x 2), in addition to his rotation guarantee, for that 1:50ish leg and additionally a 23.m.7 pilot will be identified and paid 10:30

Falcon20 08-09-2019 04:33 AM
Originally Posted by Big E 757 (Post 2867453)
Today I saw a trip in daily trip coverage awarded for a GS and he was junior to me. I looked again and it was in open time, then I saw it awarded again to someone junior to me again....I knew this trip met my criteria but I was on duty. I changed the “no” to “yes” on the GS request for acknowledging if you’re on duty, and immediately got a call from Arcos for this trip and selected it. Nothing further happened for 20 minutes and the trip sat in open time unawarded. I called scheduling before heading to the airplane and she checked with my scheduler and said there are no uncovered trips. All GS have been awarded, so I checked ICrew one more time and the guy who ended up with the trip was a 2800ish seniority number. It looked like it was covering it with a 7900ish number when I saw the 2 guys on the daily trip coverage with their names on the trip at different times.

It was really weird. I’ve seen back in the manual days where it’ll show the pilot on there while they are trying to contact him/her, but with Arcos, I would have thought a pilots name wouldn’t be there until it’s official. And for it to go 5000 numbers senior to the numbers I saw when it was bouncing between daily trip coverage and open time...I can’t understand what was going on.
I’ve seen the same. It appears that the system “ghosts” assignments that show on trip coverage momentarily. Once the system identifies the eligible pilots then ARCOS starts robo calls.

I could be wrong but it seems that way to me. As such I don’t believe an assignment until there is the * saying it has been acknowledged.

Gspeed 08-09-2019 04:39 AM
Originally Posted by Falcon20 (Post 2867489)
I’ve seen the same. It appears that the system “ghosts” assignments that show on trip coverage momentarily. Once the system identifies the eligible pilots then ARCOS starts robo calls.

I could be wrong but it seems that way to me. As such I don’t believe an assignment until there is the * saying it has been acknowledged.
Correct. I believe that this is how ARCOS identifies who is legal and available for said rotation(s).

Originally Posted by tunes (Post 2867459)
do you still have the callout ID? or the flight/date? You can PM me. Also, if you are comfortable giving me your name you can do that in a PM and i can pull up the arcos log for it.

I don't have any of the info anymore, but I'm now more educated on the topic and won't let it occur unnoticed next time. Thanks for the info.

DELTAFO 08-09-2019 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by Big E 757 (Post 2867453)
Today I saw a trip in daily trip coverage awarded for a GS and he was junior to me. I looked again and it was in open time, then I saw it awarded again to someone junior to me again....I knew this trip met my criteria but I was on duty. I changed the “no” to “yes” on the GS request for acknowledging if you’re on duty, and immediately got a call from Arcos for this trip and selected it. Nothing further happened for 20 minutes and the trip sat in open time unawarded. I called scheduling before heading to the airplane and she checked with my scheduler and said there are no uncovered trips. All GS have been awarded, so I checked ICrew one more time and the guy who ended up with the trip was a 2800ish seniority number. It looked like it was covering it with a 7900ish number when I saw the 2 guys on the daily trip coverage with their names on the trip at different times.

It was really weird. I’ve seen back in the manual days where it’ll show the pilot on there while they are trying to contact him/her, but with Arcos, I would have thought a pilots name wouldn’t be there until it’s official. And for it to go 5000 numbers senior to the numbers I saw when it was bouncing between daily trip coverage and open time...I can’t understand what was going on.
I've seen that multiple times. I think they're running through the trip coverage list. It always goes away and Arcos calls go out shortly after.

waldo135 08-09-2019 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by Big E 757 (Post 2867453)
Today I saw a trip in daily trip coverage awarded for a GS and he was junior to me. I looked again and it was in open time, then I saw it awarded again to someone junior to me again....I knew this trip met my criteria but I was on duty. I changed the “no” to “yes” on the GS request for acknowledging if you’re on duty, and immediately got a call from Arcos for this trip and selected it. Nothing further happened for 20 minutes and the trip sat in open time unawarded. I called scheduling before heading to the airplane and she checked with my scheduler and said there are no uncovered trips. All GS have been awarded, so I checked ICrew one more time and the guy who ended up with the trip was a 2800ish seniority number. It looked like it was covering it with a 7900ish number when I saw the 2 guys on the daily trip coverage with their names on the trip at different times.

It was really weird. I’ve seen back in the manual days where it’ll show the pilot on there while they are trying to contact him/her, but with Arcos, I would have thought a pilots name wouldn’t be there until it’s official. And for it to go 5000 numbers senior to the numbers I saw when it was bouncing between daily trip coverage and open time...I can’t understand what was going on.
Right before the ARCOS call goes out, the trip is “assigned” to a lot of people for just a second or two. I assume it’s the way they check if the trip is legal. I don’t fret till I see the asterisk, meaning it’s been accepted.

Big E 757 08-09-2019 08:38 AM
Originally Posted by tunes (Post 2867459)
do you still have the callout ID? or the flight/date? You can PM me. Also, if you are comfortable giving me your name you can do that in a PM and i can pull up the arcos log for it.



That could happen for a number of reasons. What could have happened is a senior pilot missed the original window, then called scheduling later and said they wanted the trip. If no one in the current batch wants it when the batch expires the senior pilot that called in from a previous batch will be awarded the trip. Does that make sense? I'm happy to look into it if you want to give me the info.
Yes that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I am sure everything was on the up and up. I’m not worried about it as it wasn’t even close and someone did end up getting it. This isn’t the same as having the trip no op during awarding it.

Tadertot 08-09-2019 09:32 AM
Back to running on red line. I was called 4 times last night for IA’s.
ATL 320B

Falcon20 08-09-2019 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by Tadertot (Post 2867613)
Back to running on red line. I was called 4 times last night for IA’s.
ATL 320B
I remember when the 88 was like that.


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