1721
09-18-2020, 08:13 AM
#81
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: 737B
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by TED74
Where did you get that idea? I'd be surprised too, but that's not what 90% of anyone said. Makes an interesting straw man argument if you're into that kind of rhetoric, though. Sometimes I'm shocked how many folks don't think a little deeper.
I am part of the 90% of folks who rejected the company's plan for targeted, temporary ALV reductions that they wanted to implement without exhausting all voluntary measures and be creative with solutions to avoid furloughs. Our CEO publicly stated his intent to do both.
You'll notice that since their offer was made, negotiations have seemingly led to a much more pilot-friendly agreement we'll get to see soon. I thank the 90% of polled pilots who knew better than to accept a crappy deal.
I am part of the 90% of folks who rejected the company's plan for targeted, temporary ALV reductions that they wanted to implement without exhausting all voluntary measures and be creative with solutions to avoid furloughs. Our CEO publicly stated his intent to do both.
You'll notice that since their offer was made, negotiations have seemingly led to a much more pilot-friendly agreement we'll get to see soon. I thank the 90% of polled pilots who knew better than to accept a crappy deal.
I’m certainly not against using the opportunity to fix things in the contract. Also, I can’t imagine not getting a likewise reduction in reserve days vs. ALV.
If the negotiated deal ends up being: an ALV cut, voluntary measures to the extent that they aren’t actually a cost, as well as some other cost neutral items we could use - I will be happy for sure, which I know was also your point at the end there.
09-18-2020, 08:21 AM
#82
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by sailingfun
They filled 300 positions just for 330/350 Captains in the AE. Probably another 40 765 CA’s also awarded. That is not counting reinstatement’s. That does make much sense if they need a big ALV downward adjustment. It also is probably the max they can train on a short AE contrary to your statement even though not all awards require training. I understand they will be purchasing off sight simulator time to complete the 350 training from the bid.
09-18-2020, 08:37 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Fetal
Posts: 1,148
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I am not sure why people keep saying they want to slash widebody ALV’s. With the elimination of the 777 category and the VEOP retirements they are short and have a lot of training to do for both the A350 and A330 on the Captains side. The A350 next summer will fully utilize every airframe. The 330 is projected for high utilization. ALV’s will be high for both. The manning on the widebodies is solved, the only problem is getting more widebody pilots trained.
You’re proving the point. Had we agreed to the variable ALV, they would’ve slashed the ALVs on the dormant WB fleets, then maxed them out when they had right-sized the categories through retirements/furloughs. I know, I know, they would’ve “sworn” they wouldn’t furlough if we took this pro-company QOL-killing deal. For sure.
09-18-2020, 08:38 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: A330 First Officer
Posts: 1,465
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I am not sure why people keep saying they want to slash widebody ALV’s. With the elimination of the 777 category and the VEOP retirements they are short and have a lot of training to do for both the A350 and A330 on the Captains side. The A350 next summer will fully utilize every airframe. The 330 is projected for high utilization. ALV’s will be high for both. The manning on the widebodies is solved, the only problem is getting more widebody pilots trained.
09-18-2020, 09:12 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 167
Originally Posted by sailingfun
The company can simply furlough and get a greater cost savings.
09-18-2020, 09:14 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2015
Position: stake holder ir.delta.com
Posts: 10,027
Originally Posted by sailingfun
We are discussing the statement they want it for widebodies only.
How does that square with your high ALV claim?
Last edited by notEnuf; 09-18-2020 at 09:35 AM.
09-18-2020, 09:18 AM
#87
Bus Driver
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 278
I think there is a big PR/"Branding" incentive for the company to not furlough - Delta can stand on the highest hill and shout far and wide that they are the only "Major" international carrier that didn't furlough anyone. That can be easily branded as "we care for our people," "our employees are better," "we simply are the best-run airline in the country." There is real value in that. Saying "we almost didn't furlough anyone" doesn't carry the same weight.
I'm willing to bet someone on the 4th floor has estimated the "value" of that statement, too. It is greater than Zero.
I'm willing to bet someone on the 4th floor has estimated the "value" of that statement, too. It is greater than Zero.
09-18-2020, 09:21 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Hoping for any position
Posts: 2,504
Originally Posted by DALMD88FO
Because that is what JL said in one of his town halls. That is were the term targeted ALV reduction came from. Even with the VEOP WB FO positions are highly over staffed
Delta chose the order of the steps they took, starting with the April rebid (14% paycut for me) and then the subsequent steps. SWA had a comprehensive plan for their pilot group on 1 June that almost 25% of their pilots participated in some form of leave. I don’t know a single person to be naive enough to think that will guarantee no furloughs but when the time comes and the company (SWA) states that revenue is not returning and they need to furlough or reduce hours, I think the pilots will be willing to actively work with management. Our management has soured our relationship so badly I don’t see any willing help coming from this group. They have done this so backwards it’s almost embarrassing. But, that just makes me think it was 100% intentional.
09-18-2020, 09:27 AM
#89
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: 737B
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by Scoop
I agree 100% it is an honorable solution. It was honorable to take a voluntary 32% pay cut to avoid BK. How did that work out? Pilot don't trust management. This is learned behavior. We lived it.
The problem isn't unethical Pilots the problem is unethical management. No Pilot in their right mind who has been through this before and burned wants to be burned again.
Like I have said before and will repeat ad nauseam - If we had a Herb Kelleher type CEO, I would be all over it.
Scoop
The problem isn't unethical Pilots the problem is unethical management. No Pilot in their right mind who has been through this before and burned wants to be burned again.
Like I have said before and will repeat ad nauseam - If we had a Herb Kelleher type CEO, I would be all over it.
Scoop
I still think an ALV cut is a very different staffing solution than a rate cut (especially 32%). I also believe SILs are harmful to jobs vs. an ALV cut.
But I wasn’t here for the bankruptcy and I would probably think differently if I was, especially with the same executive on the team. Was there anything like an ALV cut offered then?
09-18-2020, 09:38 AM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Hoping for any position
Posts: 2,504
Originally Posted by Corndog
Fair enough. Those events destroyed lives and families. With the gravity of losses and continued reduced demand, there is no guarantee they won’t furlough, ask for more concessions, or use bankruptcy down the road. I would be surprised to see a LONGER TERM (longer than 6 months or so maybe?) no-furlough agreement. It would disappoint me if they offer it because it would be an obvious lie to think they know at this stage that they can keep that promise. Bankruptcy is definitely a possibility without a meaningful rebound as well.
I still think an ALV cut is a very different staffing solution than a rate cut (especially 32%). I also believe SILs are harmful to jobs vs. an ALV cut.
But I wasn’t here for the bankruptcy and I would probably think differently if I was, especially with the same executive on the team. Was there anything like an ALV cut offered then?
I still think an ALV cut is a very different staffing solution than a rate cut (especially 32%). I also believe SILs are harmful to jobs vs. an ALV cut.
But I wasn’t here for the bankruptcy and I would probably think differently if I was, especially with the same executive on the team. Was there anything like an ALV cut offered then?
