Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-23-2012, 07:01 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
Oil is down to $90/barrel...my guess is the downward trend continues. Profits!
05-23-2012, 07:02 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Worse case:
Current PWA: 255 76 seaters
Or...vs
C2012 TA: 325 65-76 seaters which includes 223 76 seaters and 102 E170s/CRJ700s. PWA now for 51+ seat jets: 19,380 seats
vs
C2012 TA now for 51+ seat jets: 23,658 seats
05-23-2012, 07:06 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by SailorJerry
Has anyone asked Alfa yet why he and his constructive engagement didn't find it appropriate to ensure that Delta Jets are flown by Delta pilots? He keeps hinging everything on the smoke and mirrors of compound interest and pay issues which are ok. They're a 50.01% pass. But yet no one can come clean and explain to me why the most qualified pilots in the Delta system were passed over for a fleet of 70 aircraft (because you know GD well the 717s are growth-neutral).
Explain. Someone. Please.
Explain. Someone. Please.
The DCI companies can't put themselves out business by just giving up their contracts, the shareholders of those publicly held companies would be outraged. IF DAL could accelerate the parking of 50's and not have to be accountable to paying a DCI anyway, they would.
The additional 76's aren't going to DCI out of charity or desire, they are going out of necessity.
A true hard cap is the first step, and if/when we are "back at the table" (maybe in 2 years and 10 months) we can start looking at the "sunset clauses" and starting to knock down the 450 limit as planes are coming off of the "financial commitments".
All of this while:
LCC has a RJ fleet of over 550 (and is a fraction of the size of DAL)
UCAL has over 550 RJ's and UNLIMITED 70's
AMR 1113 and the AMR/LCC term sheet will allow around 800 if not MORE RJ's upto 81-88 seats.
05-23-2012, 07:11 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by APCLurker
Yep. "The company staffs for summer needs" is what we have always been told. And here we are allowing them to reduce reserve staffing needs (and hence total pilots required) in the summer with ALV+15 (and smaller summer bid months) in exchange for some bogus "60 hour average" so-called protection.
The company will get the reduced staffing they want due to the "averages" throughout the year (think slower winter months) diluting out the summer increase, and we'll get less pilots needed.
The company will get the reduced staffing they want due to the "averages" throughout the year (think slower winter months) diluting out the summer increase, and we'll get less pilots needed.
Having credit time for reserves is a big YES for me on this TA.
05-23-2012, 07:13 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
The biggest mistake anyone can make is to assume that management is your friend. We have made our pilot group into a business partner with management That is what constructive engagement is, it is not going to birthday parties and yucking it up in the corporate boardroom.
We have added value to Delta in the last five years and they have put value back into our pockets. We have compounded gains into our contract at a rate that vastly exceeds other pilot groups. If we stop adding value to the company, they will put us to the side and ignore us for as long as they can. Events of the last five years have shown that we can sit for years, in fact many years with nothing happening in old school Section 6.
If you are unsure about what happens when you no longer are a business partner look what happened to Mesa (Freedom). As soon as they got on the bad side of Delta they went Scarface on them, they ended up in bankruptcy.
Here are the returns (both pay and DC plan) per year since bankruptcy exit:
2008 - 5.3% (average, some higher some lower)
2009 - 5%
2010 - 5%
2011 - 5%
2012 - 4% + 4%(TA) = 8.1% compounded
2013 - 8.5% (TA)
2014 - 4% (TA)
2015 - 3% (TA)
Quick, one of you financial gurus do a compounded return on that and let me know what you come up with.
We have added value to Delta in the last five years and they have put value back into our pockets. We have compounded gains into our contract at a rate that vastly exceeds other pilot groups. If we stop adding value to the company, they will put us to the side and ignore us for as long as they can. Events of the last five years have shown that we can sit for years, in fact many years with nothing happening in old school Section 6.
If you are unsure about what happens when you no longer are a business partner look what happened to Mesa (Freedom). As soon as they got on the bad side of Delta they went Scarface on them, they ended up in bankruptcy.
Here are the returns (both pay and DC plan) per year since bankruptcy exit:
2008 - 5.3% (average, some higher some lower)
2009 - 5%
2010 - 5%
2011 - 5%
2012 - 4% + 4%(TA) = 8.1% compounded
2013 - 8.5% (TA)
2014 - 4% (TA)
2015 - 3% (TA)
Quick, one of you financial gurus do a compounded return on that and let me know what you come up with.
Not enough. Please refer to the survey results. You fell way short of even touching the median desired pay percentage. You fell short of even matching SWA on Jan. 1, '13 which was a floor for most folks.
Then, consider SWA is set to open section 6 and has a system in place to have automatic raises going forward of up tp 3% a year. That leaves us way behind them again by 2015!!
What you have deliverd to us leaves us no where near effective pattern bargaining. Giant FAIL on DALPA's part. You all knew the stakes were high and what the potential ramifications of not listening to your constituents would be.
Wonder what Tims PO Box is gonna look like in, oh about, 24 hours.
05-23-2012, 07:15 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Elvis90
. Also, aren't we prepping for an AS merger? He needs the pilots' help on that, just like DAL-NWA.
Now HA or someone else is of a different nature.
Here's some food for thought while we are on this subject. All the news about AMR lately has been from the press talking about the unions' conversations with Dougie Parker, and Dougie Parker's conversations with the unions. Where has AMR management been in all of this? Strangely quiet IMO. Are they sitting idle and watching how this is unfolding without enacting SOME kind of plan? I highly highly doubt that. Time will tell.. but I will bet that the AMR/U deal is far from being what it appears.
05-23-2012, 07:17 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
Originally Posted by Elvis90
. Also, aren't we prepping for an AS merger? He needs the pilots' help on that, just like DAL-NWA.
Now HA or someone else is of a different nature.
Here's some food for thought while we are on this subject. All the news about AMR lately has been from the press talking about the unions' conversations with Dougie Parker, and Dougie Parker's conversations with the unions. Where has AMR management been in all of this? Strangely quiet IMO. Are they sitting idle and watching how this is unfolding without enacting SOME kind of plan? I highly highly doubt that. Time will tell.. but I will bet that the AMR/U deal is far from being what it appears.
05-23-2012, 07:23 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
And frankly, I'm stuck on scope. If I had to chose between the two I'd rather have our current PWA scope.
Everybody take a deep breath and think about this for a little while. Sign off from these boards, and put a pencil to paper and look at where we are.. and where we will be wrt scope.
Like I said in another post.. I can live with this. For the junior guys, I think this will turn out better in the long run.
05-23-2012, 07:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Fear, huh? Let's look at facts:
Airtran: 86 months in negotiations, they voted down a TA and didn't get another contract for about 5 years. They voted down the first TA with Southwest over seniority and just a short time later had to eat a much worse deal.
Continental: 47 months in negotiations
United: 36 months in negotiations
American: 60+ months in negotiations, now in bankruptcy
Airways: Merged in late 2005, now 80 months in negotiations
So what facts do you have to claim I am being fearful? The 29 month figure came from a slide that the NMB Chairwoman presented to the MEC and is posted on the ALPA website and included all the railroads which tend to have shorter negotiations. Why would she put that there? You can ignore facts and history at your own peril. Please don't tell me that we are going to bet our careers based on the advice of some internet blowhard. At least do some basic research first.
Airtran: 86 months in negotiations, they voted down a TA and didn't get another contract for about 5 years. They voted down the first TA with Southwest over seniority and just a short time later had to eat a much worse deal.
Continental: 47 months in negotiations
United: 36 months in negotiations
American: 60+ months in negotiations, now in bankruptcy
Airways: Merged in late 2005, now 80 months in negotiations
So what facts do you have to claim I am being fearful? The 29 month figure came from a slide that the NMB Chairwoman presented to the MEC and is posted on the ALPA website and included all the railroads which tend to have shorter negotiations. Why would she put that there? You can ignore facts and history at your own peril. Please don't tell me that we are going to bet our careers based on the advice of some internet blowhard. At least do some basic research first.
The blow back from this strategy and ill fated decision will be facsinating to watch this summer. You all have seriously miscalculated the pilot group.
Have to give you one prop though. You all have some sheer audacity and balls for trying to force this one down on everyone in face of the external factors breathing down the MEC committee's necks. But we already are familiar with the impudence that you swim in as it has been on full display and never more so than with the handling of the FPL resolutions.
05-23-2012, 07:42 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by newKnow
This is STILL a huge concern of mine. Will one of the "experts" please respond to this post?
1. Formulae values for the bid period at issue:
A = scheduled block and credit hours for such position
B = total vacation hours for such position, where vacation hours = # of projected vacation
days x (ALV/30)
C = total training hours for such position, where training hours = # of projected training
days x (ALV/30)
D = ALV for such position
E = 12 bid period rolling average of block and credit hours flown by reserve pilots for
such position + H for such position
F = 12 bid period rolling average of reserve duty periods worked for such position
G = 12 bid period rolling average of scheduled block and credit hours for such position
H = 12 bid period rolling average GS/GSWC/IA/IAWC hours flown, minus one standard
deviation for such position
Note one: In determining a 12 bid period rolling average, the Company will use the least
recent 12 of the previous 14 bid periods.
Note two: The ALV for a position will be between 72 and 82 hours (inclusive).
2. For each position in each bid period:
a. Regular pilots = (A + B + C)/D
b. Domestic reserve pilots = [(E /60) x 0.6 + (F /14) x 0.4] x (A/G)
c. International reserve pilots = [(E /60) x 0.8 + (F/14) x 0.2] x (A/ G)
3. For each position in each bid period, the total pilots required will be determined as
follows:
a. Total pilots for a domestic position = regular pilots + domestic reserve pilots.
b. Total pilots for an international position = regular pilots + international reserve pilots.
A = scheduled block and credit hours for such position
B = total vacation hours for such position, where vacation hours = # of projected vacation
days x (ALV/30)
C = total training hours for such position, where training hours = # of projected training
days x (ALV/30)
D = ALV for such position
E = 12 bid period rolling average of block and credit hours flown by reserve pilots for
such position + H for such position
F = 12 bid period rolling average of reserve duty periods worked for such position
G = 12 bid period rolling average of scheduled block and credit hours for such position
H = 12 bid period rolling average GS/GSWC/IA/IAWC hours flown, minus one standard
deviation for such position
Note one: In determining a 12 bid period rolling average, the Company will use the least
recent 12 of the previous 14 bid periods.
Note two: The ALV for a position will be between 72 and 82 hours (inclusive).
2. For each position in each bid period:
a. Regular pilots = (A + B + C)/D
b. Domestic reserve pilots = [(E /60) x 0.6 + (F /14) x 0.4] x (A/G)
c. International reserve pilots = [(E /60) x 0.8 + (F/14) x 0.2] x (A/ G)
3. For each position in each bid period, the total pilots required will be determined as
follows:
a. Total pilots for a domestic position = regular pilots + domestic reserve pilots.
b. Total pilots for an international position = regular pilots + international reserve pilots.
The statement that staffing is not an average is just false. It is an average of an average. (double secret average)
There are also terms for Duty Periods worked (F/14) in the formula. That is because domestic pilots are more prone to having multiple duty periods with low block time (those goofy non-bid package rotations) and international pilots usually get more block time per day worked. The formula takes that into account to ensure that pilots aren't working 17 or 18 duty periods with low block time. I remember my two years as the plug MD-88 reserve captain under the old system (where junior guys ate it non stop) and that is why Duty Periods made it into that formula.
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