Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-26-2012, 08:30 PM
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Ok, so I haven't seen the contents to my v-file lately so I was shocked to see the slick "Leading the Industry C2012" Section 6 Opener in there.
Leading the industry, YGTBSM. But I decided to thumb through it anyway.
On page 3, the compensation bullets were:
* Significantly increase hourly rates of pay.
* Increase Int'l pay and cover all ops outside of the 48 contiuous states.
* Establish MED pay
*Establish Holiday pay
*Improve the profit sharing plan
Not only did they fail on the hourly rates, but on everything else as well.
In all of these posts, were any of these other bullets addressed and why they are missing? Especially Holiday and MED pay. We already know that we did not improve profit sharing at all and instead gave away 33%.
T
Leading the industry, YGTBSM. But I decided to thumb through it anyway.
On page 3, the compensation bullets were:
* Significantly increase hourly rates of pay.
* Increase Int'l pay and cover all ops outside of the 48 contiuous states.
* Establish MED pay
*Establish Holiday pay
*Improve the profit sharing plan
Not only did they fail on the hourly rates, but on everything else as well.
In all of these posts, were any of these other bullets addressed and why they are missing? Especially Holiday and MED pay. We already know that we did not improve profit sharing at all and instead gave away 33%.
T
05-26-2012, 08:31 PM
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Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Although this is mildly interesting, these "facts" would have resulted in this response from me as the NC: "So, are you saying you want a provision in our contract forcing senior level management to be smarter businessmen?"
So freaking what! How does this affect a section 6 negotiations? Oh, you say you need our help in easing the financial burden that your mistakes have laid upon us? OK. Here is a list from our pilot survey that we MUST have in order to help the airline unload your mistake. What's that? You can only offer us a cost neutral contract? I understand. Expedited negotiations are now complete. At least we tried.
So freaking what! How does this affect a section 6 negotiations? Oh, you say you need our help in easing the financial burden that your mistakes have laid upon us? OK. Here is a list from our pilot survey that we MUST have in order to help the airline unload your mistake. What's that? You can only offer us a cost neutral contract? I understand. Expedited negotiations are now complete. At least we tried.
05-26-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by slowplay
You've been given the answer before, groundskeeper. Delta is going to spend money on DCI, either through refleeting or maintenance/grounding/renegotiation. The question before you is do you want Delta pilots to benefit from that expenditure or not?
05-26-2012, 08:44 PM
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Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,512
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Slow, its not a question of what they will do?, The question is; Can they do it? That is the question every lawyer asks; Can I get around this language legally?
...Makes me scratch my head and wonder why it is so vague. I want a great contact, but it needs to be vetted line by line...
Where we need vague language we have defined language like the "proft/loss" definition, and where we need tighter language its vague.
...Makes me scratch my head and wonder why it is so vague. I want a great contact, but it needs to be vetted line by line...
Where we need vague language we have defined language like the "proft/loss" definition, and where we need tighter language its vague.
When Delta came to the Comair pilots in 2005, they offered 34 new aircraft in exchange for a two-year pay freeze to get our costs in line with the rest of DCI (the fact that we've had this freeze for 7 years and somehow we're still too expensive is a different matter entirely).
In 2005 Delta came in, plopped an offer on the table, and said "we need this in a month. No negotiations. Yes or no. And a 'No' means they go to Republic." This scare tactic went straight to the pilots in memos, so ALPA couldn't pretend otherwise. Naturally we didn't have 350 cycles of back and forth.
Point 1 - Has RA actually gone on record that this is a one time offer, yes or no? Otherwise the 717s stay at SWA? That would be a very good scare tactic, but only if he's prepared to have his bluff called - and let the current contract stand for several more years.
Point 2 - As ACL said, it's not a question of what will they do, but "is this legal?" The LGA slot swap didn't cost you guys anything more than some time on the phone and a couple stamps, but look how that turned out. RA didn't seem too concerned that he played you in the spirit of constructive engagement.
Point 3 - If this contract is 477 pages long, but still vague on the important stuff (717 deal, AirTran pilots, definition of profit, etc), then you should be asking why. Every gray area belongs to Delta.
05-26-2012, 08:45 PM
Can't abide NAI
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Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by Jack Bauer
Your credibility is shot. Give it a rest already. You just cant sell this stinker as is. You have already overleveraged your opinion which routinely is out of sync with sharper, more intellectually honest minds. Take your company sales pitch elsewhere.
This board is a marketplace for ideas. Don't buy what you don't like, or refute it and enjoy the contest.
Jefferson was right when he ripped off Voltaire and said something to the effect of "I disagree with you, but will defend to my death your right to say it."
05-26-2012, 08:46 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by slowplay
You've been given the answer before, groundskeeper. Delta is going to spend money on DCI, either through refleeting or maintenance/grounding/renegotiation.
Originally Posted by slowplay
The question before you is do you want Delta pilots to benefit from that expenditure or not?
Carl
05-26-2012, 08:47 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by TheManager
Your flaw is that you assume that the costs for refleeting or M/G/ReN are the same and balanced. They are not.
05-26-2012, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by alfaromeo
First, this forum and the ALPA forum are in no way indicative of the pilot group. On this forum Scope is by far the biggest issue and in the contract survey it was far behind pay. So reading this forum will not give you an accurate view of the pilot group.
It's not just money, it's all the rest. Please tell me how a negotiation will end where only one side wins. We won concessions from Delta even in bankruptcy with a gun to our head. So if you are waiting for some negotiation where only one side's issues are addressed then you better get used to this contract because you will retire under it. If you walk into the NMB and demand only concessions from the company, they will pat you on the head and tell you to come back when you are serious. Please go see the experience of the APA and USAPA for excellent examples of this type of demand bargaining.
Our reserve system is industry leading, our sick leave is industry leading. Our pay is industry leading. Our scope is ground breaking in the control we have over the DCI operation and its relation to mainline. Look at what you demand and what the company is offering in the TA from the perspective of an outside observer (the NMB) and not from the perspective of a pilot that is shooting for the perfect contract. We are already far ahead of our major competitors and about to lap the field. Do you think the NMB will support us moving even further out or will they put us on ice?
No one can guarantee you some growth or upward movement. We have laid the foundation to ensure mainline growth in a neutral or even slightly down economic environment. Past that, you will never have a guarantee. You don't have it now and you won't ever in the future. You will never convince a neutral third party that you have to have that either.
So you are trying to gauge this in light of some perfect contract you imagine. I say you should gauge it in light of how you could force that perfect contract. That will only happen if the NMB allows us to strike. Even if you believe they would allow a strike, they have shown time and again that the type of contract you seek is unavailable until the fiery end of humanity. How many years of watching pilots getting put in the naughty corner will it take for people to learn how to not go to the naughty corner. Airways 7, American 6, Continental 4, United 3. That's twenty years of experience right there.
Go back and read the NMB presentation on the ALPA website. She was giving you a road map to contract success and warning you how to stay out of the naughty corner. Negotiate, zone of reasonableness, listen to your professionals, 29 months in mediation. The railroads consolidated like the airlines are now except it was in the 1990's. Since then, no strikes multiple PEB's. Why would she take the time to point that out to us? Just interesting fun facts or a warning of what's to come?
It seems to me that most on this board think she was joking. She has no agenda to lower your expectations, she is giving advice and has the hammer to make you follow her advice. Maybe we really do need four years on ice to learn our lesson. Expensive lesson, in money, scope, and everything else. Maybe you are right and it's just our turn to touch that stove and see how hot it is.
It's not just money, it's all the rest. Please tell me how a negotiation will end where only one side wins. We won concessions from Delta even in bankruptcy with a gun to our head. So if you are waiting for some negotiation where only one side's issues are addressed then you better get used to this contract because you will retire under it. If you walk into the NMB and demand only concessions from the company, they will pat you on the head and tell you to come back when you are serious. Please go see the experience of the APA and USAPA for excellent examples of this type of demand bargaining.
Our reserve system is industry leading, our sick leave is industry leading. Our pay is industry leading. Our scope is ground breaking in the control we have over the DCI operation and its relation to mainline. Look at what you demand and what the company is offering in the TA from the perspective of an outside observer (the NMB) and not from the perspective of a pilot that is shooting for the perfect contract. We are already far ahead of our major competitors and about to lap the field. Do you think the NMB will support us moving even further out or will they put us on ice?
No one can guarantee you some growth or upward movement. We have laid the foundation to ensure mainline growth in a neutral or even slightly down economic environment. Past that, you will never have a guarantee. You don't have it now and you won't ever in the future. You will never convince a neutral third party that you have to have that either.
So you are trying to gauge this in light of some perfect contract you imagine. I say you should gauge it in light of how you could force that perfect contract. That will only happen if the NMB allows us to strike. Even if you believe they would allow a strike, they have shown time and again that the type of contract you seek is unavailable until the fiery end of humanity. How many years of watching pilots getting put in the naughty corner will it take for people to learn how to not go to the naughty corner. Airways 7, American 6, Continental 4, United 3. That's twenty years of experience right there.
Go back and read the NMB presentation on the ALPA website. She was giving you a road map to contract success and warning you how to stay out of the naughty corner. Negotiate, zone of reasonableness, listen to your professionals, 29 months in mediation. The railroads consolidated like the airlines are now except it was in the 1990's. Since then, no strikes multiple PEB's. Why would she take the time to point that out to us? Just interesting fun facts or a warning of what's to come?
It seems to me that most on this board think she was joking. She has no agenda to lower your expectations, she is giving advice and has the hammer to make you follow her advice. Maybe we really do need four years on ice to learn our lesson. Expensive lesson, in money, scope, and everything else. Maybe you are right and it's just our turn to touch that stove and see how hot it is.
It seems as though you have to make up things or put words in my mouth to make counter-arguments against my posts.
* I never said I wanted a perfect contract.
* I never said I wanted guaranteed growth.
* I never said one side had to "win."
My point was contained in the middle of my post, witch you missed, which tells me I should try to shorten my posts.
Originally Posted by newKnow
Now, not only is there huge confusion about holes in the scope clause, enforceability, and carve outs, but there are also work rule changes that insure the company can do the same job with less pilots.
Originally Posted by newKnow
More than money, Delta pilots are worried about their jobs. What good does a huge pay-raise do anyway if you are bidding a category or two lower aircraft? We are not blind, but because we have good memories, we are understandably gun shy.
1.) Adding more 70 seat RJ's to be flown by non-Delta pilots
2.) Increasing pilot productivity to the point where it requires fewer Delta pilots.
3.) Required doctor notes after your second sick call for widebody pilots.
4.) Carve outs for Republic type flying.
These are things I don't remember being contained in the survey. These are things pilots assumed (yes, it's an opening) our union would never consider in this type of negotiating environment. If these concessions were not in the TA, I would venture to say it would pass easily.
But, they are there and pilots are not happy about them being there. Like I said, we are worried about our jobs. We don't need guarantees for advancement, but we sure as hell don't want to vote away the small advancements we had coming to us. -- (Retirements / Work rules.)
Once again, that seems to be what a lot of people are worried about. I think the road shows will be the make or break factor on whether or not the TA passes. This is a smart but skeptical pilot group. So, if there are holes in the protections that assure Delta pilots don't get screwed on staffing or advancement, or work rules, or upcoming retirements, I would guess TA passage is in trouble, because word of a bad product travels quickly. But, if the presenters can convince people that those holes are plugged, the TA will pass.
But, I will point out that the people on this board and the ALPA board ARE representative of the pilot group (no matter what pineapple says.), very intelligent, very engaged, and very skeptical. So, hows it going so far?
We will see which is which.
Last edited by newKnow; 05-26-2012 at 09:02 PM.
05-26-2012, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by TheManager
Your flaw is that you assume that the costs and benefits for refleeting vs. M/G/ReN are the same and balanced. They are not.
The path without us is slower and has greater risk, but the maximum costs are very defined for management.
05-26-2012, 09:00 PM
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Posts: 2,539
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
So why did the NC shake hands on a cost neutral contract that took away things to fund its very few benefits?
This TA provides protections against your aircraft being JV'd out of production.
This TA is cost neutral only in the sense that Delta money was taken from different parts of the company that will now be paid to pilots.
There's no reason to continue to be so disingenuous. This has been explained, and Bar even provided Campbell's quote in context. You can't handle the truth.
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