If you're at year 12 longevity, yes. You get 0%/0%/0%/0%.

+1--I'm with ya.

And if the trend continues then to "reign in" more 50 seaters or 70/76 seaters down the road all we need to do is allow cheapairlineusa to fly C series/737's on a 1 to 1.3 ratio basis. Its a terrible slippery slope. Guys have been saying for years we need to quit going down this path yet some are so quick to take a few sweaty dollars to further damage their career.

Stop the insanity!!!

http://www.blogography.com/photos4/SusanPowter.jpg

Exactly.

Thats why I keep preaching the "please remember history." Both as it applies to management as well as alpa.

Didn't we also solidify the "we might have lost" scope grievance for management in this TA to their benefit?

Remember ... our MEC Admin and ALPA President believe outsourcing is good, because Delta pilots share in the profits of outsourcing our labor. Once you understand that truth, then you understand their actions.

First, you can't code share with an alliance, an alliance has no code. You can code with other airlines. We have no restrictions on Jet Blue or Spirit or Virgin America doing a code share with Lufthansa either. What is special about Frontier that you want to restrict them from doing a code share? They can't carry Delta passengers and Delta has exclusive rights for code sharing in the US with AF/KLM. So you still don't answer the question, what does this have to do with your career at Delta?

Okay, what scenarios for a profit loss agreement does it not cover?

It is comical because we are talking about 5 business jets that have 19 passengers or less. When was the last time that Delta flew an airplane that had 19 passenger seats in it? The 40's? I am sorry, this is a joke.

Okay so you are worried that we can grow a lot and then shrink, but we have to be larger than we are today. Under today's protections we can just shrink right off the bat. How is that better?

So hiring will come six months later than under this TA, why is that good?

Let's be honest, 40 growth mainline, 70 more large RJ's, 218 less 50 seaters, no turboprop exceptions. 40 more mainline, 148 less DCI.

Your answer had nothing to do with displacements. You hint that this TA will somehow accelerate displacements and then you talk about furlough protection. Our furlough protection is much stronger on the TA.

Debunking. Reserves have to average 60 hours. Currently only 5% of reserves make it to 70 hours. How are guys going to average more than 60? Please give me the definition of average and then show the math how they exceed that average.

Okay, without the recovery option, they get no pay and then they have to pick up open time to get paid. With the recovery option, they get paid, and then they can be assigned open time. How is guaranteeing a guy's pay a concession. This is a gain, no matter how you try to spin it. By the way, this affects about 50 guys a month.

SWA will be below us in January 1, 2013 when you consider the DC plan. Please do not try to spin me that the DC doesn't count. We have decided to convert some pay to DC, if we put it all back into pay is our compensation changed at all? AF/KLM/BA, are you kidding me? Seriously, what do you think the NMB would say to you if you brought up those foreign carriers as our pattern. I mean after they pick themselves up off the floor laughing. Go ask 1,000 businessmen if Delta is a competitor for Fedex or UPS. Tell me what 999 of them will say. You know the mediators aren't like grade school children that can be hoodwinked by silly arguments.

So what do you base your assumption that Delta will just roll over if we go back for the 351st time to ask for more? You do understand that the basis for this deal was the 76 seat jets and what that allows them to do with the 50 seaters, so if you think there is some deal that doesn't involve those aircraft then you are sadly mistaken. If that is your bottom line, then don't pretend that there is some quick deal out there without those jets. Get ready to see what the f... around checklist looks like.

I am not selling fear you are selling "a hope and a prayer". You tell me, how long have major airlines been in mediation in the last 7 years? I won't tell you, because you might get scared, you tell me. How are we different from them? What conditions make it so that we don't face the same historical fate as them?

Here is what I base may decision on:

• The last time we had a deadline with this management (JCBA in the merger) and missed it, the deal got worse by $250 million. We will never recover a penny of that loss, gone forever
• Direct negotiations with management over 60 days and hundreds of proposals. The scope provisions were all fought over to the last day.
• The advice of four professional negotiators with over 100 years negotiating experience
• The advice of professional economists that have been studying this industry for dozens of years
• The direct history of our competitors over the last 7 years and the lack of movement in their negotiations.
• The lack of any meaningful retroactive pay even after multiple years in negotiations

This is not fear. Stop using childish emotional arguments like this. Are you trying to scare me into thinking that this TA will doom us for 6 years or more? Why are you telling the truth and I am selling fear. I give you facts and history and you give me...............what?


Give me some facts, give me some data, give me something more than "well I have a hunch." The last hunch we followed cost us $250 million. Before I risk $1 billion I want more than a hunch.

Excellent, well spoken. I am sorry that I am trying to get people to look at facts and reality. It is much better when we try to live in a little fantasy world.

Which consists of pretty much half the seniority list.

Still ain't gonna make me vote no though... sorry. A merger is gonna happen with or without us. I prefer to be paid a little up front, and a little when it happens. But apparently that's just me.

The more I think about the DPJ concession, the more it bothers me. DPJ is essentially a charter provider. Delta flies a bunch of charters. They are in competition for some of our flying. I realize a GV is a different animal than a 757, but Delta is activly trying to promote DPJ to our HVC's. Delta is marketing a traveling package, not just an airline. This cutout looks an a lot like the famous "camels nose". We fly a bunch of 319's on exclusive NBA/NHL charters. Those don't weigh all that much more than 100,000lbs and there's only a handful. I am sure management would love to transfer those aircraft to the DPJ banner. I flew a MLB charter and the coordinator could not stop talkin about the profit center the charter department is. Imagine how much more the company could make if they could outsource this flying. After all, we work for an airline, we wanted to get away from this type of flying. (insert mad face) This is not a vengeful management team. They did not put this clause in there to punish ALPA for the grivence They revisited this because they see there is money to be made.

Sure this is not the biggest concern in this TA, but it deserves to be looked at, not swept under the rug.