Not even a year ago in forum land pilots were saying that they would leave Delta and had their apps in at SWA and EK and would be gone and then Delta would take notice of how bad things are. Here we are and those same guys are saying that we should vote No on the TA and get more. I guess they are staying now and not leaving to send a message to Delta. You want me to search the archives and find the posts or just agree that the argument has changed to fit the mold. There was at least on guy here that knew for sure that 3 of his buds were leaving for sure any day now and then Delta would have to pay the premium to get new guys because the only way to attract talent is with money. I'm only asking the same questions that were asked of me. I've been asked point blank in a cockpit to quit and find a job that is better because I wasn't willing to save Delta Air Lines in 1113. Now I'm asking the same question as a No vote surely means you aren't happy. Why stay? It's not an attack it's a real question.

No one has still answered where the giant loopholes are in our contract that kept the 300-1500 overstaffed pilots from being furloughed in the great recession? If Delta didn't furlough then why are guys so giddy about furlough language in the TA now? Who got screwed in the volcano? The NYC pilots and it was fixed in the recovery LOA that we got for DPJ. But what did you do for me today?

Anybody get in on DAL today? It went on sale at the opening, and closed at $10.38... A nice swing to buy in...

Does anyone have the link to the parody video with the SWA captain and the AF fo reading the checklist?

8 seats in a Gulfstream that flys on call sometimes vs an all NBA Aribus they pay for year round is really the one nitnoid we're going to focus on in scope? What sports team has 8 players golfers who already charter.

Delta PWA 1986 - Unlimited 70 seat aircraft allowed
Delta PWA 1991 - No change to 70 seat aircraft of any type
Delta PWA 1996 - BAe-146 and Avro RJ-85 carved out, Sunshine B Scale designed, weight limits added for DCI freight aircraft
Delta PWA 2000 - Passenger DCI weight limits added, ratios, hub, block hours and more tied to resets no downside protection
LOA 46 Pre 1113 - Still no limits on 50 but adds up to 150 70 with mainline growth nothing tied to mainline shrinkage
LOA 51 1113 - unlimited 50 200 70 and 30 76 based on C2K metrics (Delta's court plan)
LOA - 19 DL + NWA = 255 70/76 unlimited 50 and all the props in the world

1. Delta pilots voted on all of these. No secret LOA.
2. 1113 sucked a$$
3. The RJ existed in the world in 2000 along with the ATR. Delta pilots made a choice to tie the DCI to mainline and not join it. It lacked downside protection and had reset provisions that did not protect mainline going down
4. This TA reduces total RJ hulls including props and adds a hard cap with downside protection and resets the numbers of RJ's if they shrink more. The only way we loose that is if we go back into 1113 or Delta pilots vote those protections away. This has never happened without memrat.
5. DPJ has a cap now on a handful of aircraft. Were you really going to bid a 135 lifestyle? If you think DPJ is going to take over all Charters then let's cap how many planes they can have.

Well if Delta doesn't own them yet, they aren't ours to fly. But once Delta is paying for them, there ABSOLUTELY IS scope to prevent anyone but active Delta pilots from flying them. That includes maintenance ferry's, flight control checks, repos, etc.

FYI, we gained the NBA charter flying back several years ago after Champion Airlines(basically owned by NWA through a shell game)went TU due to their B727 fleet being too expensive to operate.

So even an ultra cheap outsourcing shell game whipsaw provider can become too expensive compared to a legacy mainline when the equipment they operate becomes obsolete? Interesting...

I'm definitely not just focusing on this nitnoid regarding scope. As I specifically stated, this is yet another symptom of a larger problem. To me, it is all related.

For me it is also a credibility issue. We were told that scope was not for sale. Then they gave this away.


How about we allow zero of that size instead of allowing them a "cap." End the problem before it even has a chance to start. History proves how scope creeps. So yes, let's cap the number of planes of that size to -zero- (which would mean not allowing the concession in this ta) and let DBJ management deal with the problem and fix. Why should we "subsidize" their operation with a concession in our contract. That way, there is no concern of our charter flights ending up elsewhere.

And the issue isn't us bidding into a 135 lifestyle. It is the potential of our "lifestyle" of flying being transferred down the road into that 135 lifestyle.

Did anybody here that thought "it's only 50 seat flying" back in the day envision what DCI has become today, doing over 50% of our domestic flying?? Let's stop any scope give up, regardless of what it is, now, so that 10 years from now we're not saying: "I remember when we used to do xxx flights."

Talked with a retired Delta captain today. He asked me my opinion of the TA, and I gave it. I mentioned that I thought it would pass by a narrow margin, and I thought that T.O. was being passive and non-confrontational in his leadership. He stated that at an airline analyst's conference several years ago, it was publicly stated from the podium that the Delta pilot group is the most passive in the industry. I think that is what management expects. By the way, great to meet you today M! He is a frequent APC lurker. He recommended voting no and getting a better deal.

Yes, you are right. I was here/there. I believe we were doing charter flying at nw when I started, it went away, then came back.

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck or anything with you here but: I am missing the point as it relates to my post. I am sure it is due to my lacking. :confused:


Again on my point: right now DBJ only does 135 charter type stuff, but if we allow them larger jets, who knows what that could lead to down the road.
I see some of the charter flying that we do as a juicy potential for the "scope creep."

EDIT: anyway, we now have glue regarding this issue......