Actually, I'd love to see the math. I even think this very exchange has already occured. If memory serves, sailing corrected the numbers.

I think we had about 300 A's, and up to 585 B's on the ER alone ~ 885 total
We had about, what, 50 in each seat on the 777? ~ 985 total
We had ~ 80 in each seat on the 73N ~ 1145 total
We had the same on the M88 ~ 1305 total

Today we have about 1,400 as far as I know. We lost the 777, added the A320, and the 765.

Seems to me my math must be slightly off, because the difference would be bigger. than just 95 seats pre vs. post merger. I'm sure we gained airplanes. Problem is, we gained more senior pilots. I don't think anyone would argue that New York post-merger wasn't more senior than pre-merger.

What really enrages me about slow's comments is their gratuitous nature. I tend to think of myself as fairly reasonable. I slid back about 15% relative seniority in category since the merger, and even though I have recaptured 13%, the flying is so poor that my QOL is far less attractive than 4 years ago. I try to let that go. Most guys I fly with try to put a neutral or positive spin on it, so we're not making each other miserable.

If I read slow correctly, though, we're just a bunch of ingrates.

But of course now I've screwed myself into the ceiling over another one of these slowfests, and wasted probably 30 minutes of my life. I may not be an ingrate, but I sure am a fool. I'm out of here.

NDAs separate the representatives from those they represent. It gives them more in common with mgmt.

I have no other info on Virgin than anyone else (not in the know). However, it has had to be in the works for some time. I read in the most recent DALPA email that they are waiting for more information from management in order to formulate the unions' plan...I don't believe that, does anyone else?

Possibly, like Check, I am waiting for the negotiators notepad that gives some bizarre lopsided benefit to Virgin, but calls it some kind of a "proud" win for DAL pilots.

It has been a fairly long time since we DAL pilots have had anything I would consider a big win, but I will, with everyone else, withhold judgement until the ink is dry.

Sadly, I have come to expect very little. I guess I am happy to have a job, that's something. It would be nice to know, beyond any doubt, that DALPA was a little more rottweiler-like in its protection of the interests of Delta pilots.

I agree, RA is a very solid CEO and his team has done great things for the corporation. That has absolutely nothing to do with my perspective on what DALPA has done for the Delta pilots.

Your statement makes no sense at all. The job loss he is speaking of all came from well before the TA. The TA has been signed for just over 5 months. The main item that was a job giveback has not even been put into place at this point. The TA cost us jobs in some areas and those numbers are well quoted however it also generated jobs in other work rule areas that offset most of the loss. To claim the TA is why we have lost jobs since the merger is a bit stupid.

Do you think the economy in Europe has had anything to do with the pull down in flying? Why did we have the large build up in Europe when we were already in the agreement with AF? Could it have been because Europe was doing quite well then compared to the rest of the world? Economic realities seem to have no place in a forum discussion however they do actually play a huge roll in management decisions on flying.

I have to admit, I wasn't aware of the context in which he was speaking. I assumed his statements were in regards to the recent joint venture discussion--- so disregard what I said.

And I might add, that I was the first person to point out that we were in fact shrinking as a pilot group when our managers and many on here claimed we were in an expansion mode... before the TA was signed.

Sorry slow, but that is really funny.

Wow. Economic realities effect profits too. How much of a cut from our pay rates do you propose?

Scope is our contract.

Management writes the check for their share of Air France's flying. They could save that money and fly Delta jets. Might be inconvenient, but one contract or the other is under stress. It is my preference that the intent of our Pilot Working Agreement be honored. Surprised that you disagree.

I'd like to hear the opinion on these JV from AF pilots or Virgin Australia pilots. I wonder what they think of these things. Do they actually talk about it and say we are stealing their routes and jobs and such? I wonder if the AF guys aren't happy they lost some of their routes to us like PIT and SEA ( not sure if that is true just examples).

We need a L & G EU thread. Knowing some of those guys, it would be hysterical.

I grabbed this info off flight aware just because I was curious. Now I admit this is only one or two days in mid December and does not reflect a years worth of operations.

So fwiw...

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...id/Temp5-2.png

Now let's pretend for a moment the numbers are not only right but indicative of the overall situation. To me it makes me not like JVs because of what I see there with us and AF in JFK and ATL. Even though I know we make some flying up in ORD or PIT in the like.

For the VA JV, I can see what they're doing. But it's the JV with AF that makes me worried that's where we'll head to especially since we might not have many token cities because of LHR slot controls.

I don't know, just my two cents.