I see QOL issues directly tied to Scope, pay and retirement. The overall patience of the group has grown quite thin as all have been taken away. My belief is that the true way to regain, pay, retirement and QOL, is to start with scope. Owning more of your flying creates a better barging base in which to ask for, and expect increases in pay and retirement with will equate to the overall QOL of the pilot group.
My plan is first and foremost to listen to those I would represent. You cannot quantify the needs or desires unless you listen to the needs and desires of the group who elected you. From that point it would be my job along with my LEC and MEC brethren to chart a path to make the goals and desires of the group a reality. Now, I know that some of these desires are just plain impossible, but we need to debate it and communicate it none the less.

From talking to my fellow pilots the overwhelming response is that yes, they want pay, yes, they want scope reversal, and yes, they want QOL/retirement improvements.
The question is how to get there.

IMHO, we work for the worlds largest airline, and IF and it is an IF they are even half as profitable as they plan to be coming in to our opener in 2012 we have the right to ask and expect many things that we have lost. I am also aware that the pot is only so big, and greed has killed many advances. (This part is important for you to realize) Our company has laid the ground work for us to have a cost per seat mile that is at or below WN. That says a lot for this merger. That will bring returns to our stake holders and most definitely should bring a return well above and beyond what the profit sharing currently offers to us.

If you look at the competition this is what I see. I see places like Jet Blue that were the reason we could not compete with our previous cost structure now getting paid rates that make many of us envious. I see places like WN turning down a contract for scope. Fact is that they can expect pay to be at about 240 an hr for a 12 year 73N CA. We now have a cost structure in place that will allow that level of compensation at this company.

As it pertains to AMR and CAL, someone will break free. I expect great gains in the next 18 months from both groups. We will follow in their foot steps.

As it pertains to scope, I am not one of these type of individuals that thinks that if you rein in scope we will have 200 73N's flying around. My goal is to let the company decide what aircraft is correct for a given route and our job is to make sure that to the maximum extent possible a Delta Pilot is operating that flight. That is how we regain what we have lost. It is not a three month or three year strategy. It will more than likely take two contracts and some midterm improvements to get there.
I am long term thinker, and we need to first educate this group. With education comes understanding. Understanding leads to unity. Idealistic, maybe, but we as a LEC and MEC need to do a better job communicating to the rank and file that WE get it, and your concerns are OUR concerns. We then need to follow that up with action, After all, people have stopped watching our mouths and just watch our feet.

I think most people are happy with what we have achieved with almost everything given where we were, except scope. It is my opinion that during this merger we had an opportunity where the compnay really needed something from us, and we could really get something in return. We did O.K. with pay, what we failed at was scope. Hence the reason so many people are just sick and tired of being told the 76 seat and furthermore scope is a lot cause.
I would love to see this current reduction in DCI flying capped. Make the company put their money where their mouth is. Cap 76 seat flying at 153 airframes, and have it in our PWA that when a DCI contract is up for renewal, that it will not be renewed and that flying is returned to mainline..

I do thank you Slow for admitting that the union is looking at the cost issue as it pertains to the most recent outsourced jets. To a guy like me, that means that someone is listening even though no one will openly admit it.


Off the soap box for now......

I know you guys hate it when someone tries to interject facts into a discussion, but here goes anyways:

1. No one "overthrew" Malone. It was a normal election cycle, and the MEC (the body that elects their own Master Chairman) elected Moak.
2. Two years later Moak was re-elected by an almost entirely different MEC.
3. After the merger, Moak was [again] re-elected, this time with 12 of the 25 voting reps being DAL-N pilots.
4. Yes, the huge pay cut was voted on and approved by the pilots; just as every scope concession has been, so why blame all those on Moak?:confused:



I agree with you on all points here. It's easy to have 20/20 hindsight. Having said that, everyone on this board seems to hold LM accountable for every perceived slight or mistake, yet they hold JM up as some hero, despite his mistakes. That's my only bone of contention. Both worked extremely hard for the pilot group; both did what they thought was best at the time. I just think LM's track record is better, considering the environment he was in.



I agree with you here. Not sure of the answer, considering the current industry state. I don't see any other legacy carrier that has figured it out either; but I'm willing to try something different than what we've done in the past. Personally, I think we should attempt to scope in the EMB 170s and up; let the commuters have the CRJ700s and 900s. But that's an uphill battle, no doubt about it.

I think you are right. Not exactly right, but Compass's deal was envied by the Mesaba contingent, as well as pilots at Comair. Interestingly enough when I spoke with the former Compass Rep she was much more interested in the fate of Mesaba than she was Compass pilots.

Yes, I think Moak is playing to a broader audience. The road show to promote flow through agreements (apparently a one way flow up at Comair and ASA) certainly has nothing in it that benefits Delta pilots. It looks like a campaign.

I think he has also made a deal with management to facilitate a Compass transaction.

Wonder if he can become the association's President without the vote of the Delta pilots, because I doubt he has the grasp on unity that is required to lead our association. A split union of "haves" and "have nots" is not a sure path to victory relying on the "non preferred" pilots' votes. Even if you promise them a flow up, it still is setting two standards in a union where each member should be equal.

Moak has my respect and admiration for what he has accomplished for the Delta pilots and those contributions by he, the MEC and legion of volunteers should not be forgotten, but we simply earnestly and deeply disagree on scope issues. I see the selling of one pilot's job to benefit another pilot as a moral issue.

Yeah because her husband works for Mesaba. That is one reason why some of the comitee member of Compass did not like her. She was always worried of leaving Mesaba behind if some type of deal was made to bring Compass planes and pilots to mainline.

No and I give Chairman Moak and our MEC credit for saving us from the US Air hostile takeover attempt, as well as doing very well in maximizing returns for the pilots. He gets an enthusiastic A+++ :) for these efforts.
ALPA's politicians and their attorneys just are not very (I can't bring myself to write it). If they did not screw up so much they would not get sued so frequently and lose so often. In fact, do you recall when they won (not settled) I mean won, a case where ALPA, or an ALPA Officer was the named Defendant? That's a wide open question, I'll take any win if you can find it.

The first rule is just do the damn job you ran for. Understand that you have a fiduciary obligation to Represent members' interests above your own. The duty to the association, which means to unity and the most junior member, is more important than your own self interest. It is, at the bottom line, a service position.

The second rule is to know and recognize the limitations of the law. You should have attorneys to help you with that, preferably attorneys without a $3.1 million dollar a year incentive to watch you screw up.

Litigation expenses, specifically ALPA defense costs, are the single greatest line item on our Major Contingency Fund, most of it for stupid crap. Why would an ALPA official promise a $1 million dollar bonus to an ALPA staffer on the United Stock Ownership plan (settled in the plaintiff's favor), or settle libel suits by MEC Chairmen and EVP's (again settled in the Plaintiff's favor), or the case we know about involving fraudulent tax returns, or fight a legitimate motion to produce (to audit ALPA's books) all the way to the Supreme Court just to lose and settle that? (There are pages, and pages, on this topic going back to the Duke suit - it disgusts me that my dues are wasted in this manner)

I'm not referring to lawsuits alleging simple error. I'm talking about willful misconduct. Like writing a contract at Eagle stating that if any of four pilot groups voted against it, that they would be excluded from the flow up? What about the so called secret ballot? Frankly, for willful misconduct ALPA politicians should be on their own, to buy their own Professional Liability insurance like I have for my business. If ALPA indemnifies officers for their WILLFUL acts (not accidents) then where is the incentive for good behavior?

When DCI makes up 60% of Delta departures, isn't it pretty obvious that a big pull down of Delta flying is going to whack them too?

Also, there has been a fleet renewal going on at the DCI carriers and their large RJ's have reduced the demand for the smaller jets, while at the same time facility fees and security hassles has destroyed demand on flights where driving is a reasonable alternative to flying.

No, I do not credit scope restoration for the pull down in DCI. Remember, scope is protecting your own career, not simply ensuring the other guy loses his. Too many Delta jobs have been outsourced and we are not even going to try to get them back.When the report matches, almost bullet point for bullet point with the presentation we were given in March at the Council 44 meeting, it is credible. But to be sure we had two Council 20 Reps at the Compass meeting and are awaiting their recap to check the veracity of the report posted here.

If reports are true, the lack of conclusions, or consensus, has had no restraint on our actions.

We'll never get it back going at it alone. Until we can get AA, UAUA, and the others on board, the pay will never come close to C2K rates. I see another big reduction at UAUA; you decide what the reductions are: pay, fleet, BK, etc. Getting UAUA and LCC to help the pattern bargaining model does not look promising.

We need to be ready when the openers start flowing. We need to set a "industry standard" pay rate and know that AA, CO, and others will set the stage for the same. It just takes too long to wait for each carrier to conclude a new contract to see what our new "pattern" will be. I hope it is not in the direction UAUA is likely to take.

I agree with much of your post, especially the part about where the pattern is likely to pressure us. That negotiating environment reality, the unprofitability of the industry, and continued governmental intervention/pseudo-regulation will make it very difficult to achieve the returns we desire. I disagree that AA and CO are going to be able to help lead the way. AMR is, imo, heading for a train wreck. CAL's recent management change was about strategic vision and risk. Absent a spectacular economic recovery worldwide, there are no easy answers.

jmo, worth what you paid for it.

Contract 2000 was only one part of the puzzle and closed the 105 seat loophole down that had (and I can personally verify) ASA looking at 737's and Comair looking at DC9's.

The bigger failure was gutting ALPA's Constitution modified so that alter ego flying could proliferate and stopping the regionals from being able to bind holding companies to scope at their level. Most of the flying left mainline and left ALPA. Now pilots on that level live a never ending roller coaster of growing and shrinking (sometimes within the same company) which destroys their longevity. At mainline we agree to concessions to compete with them for our own flying (hence the MD 88 concession Slowplay uses as an example of us beating DCI at their own game).

The problem with Contract 2000 scope (which still exists today) is that it seeks to limit airplanes instead of directing which pilots do the flying. Our contract currently provides two examples. We restrict RJ flying and handle scope violations as bargaining events which usually result in the sale of flying by agreement.

Good scope binds pilots to the flying. For example what I've heard about the joint venture serves an an example. It states that Delta pilots will fly X,Y and Z.

If we look at the history of C2K scope; it got its start at US Air, was modified and put in place at United and we used United's deal as a template. It has failed everywhere that it was used.

This summary is not my work, but it is pretty good, so I'll repost it here:To fix scope we must begin with good economic analysis and build consensus around unity.

Honest question, if we could roll back the clock to 1999, should we staple ASA and Comair? Would Delta have avoided bankruptcy without a $600,000,000 strike on top of $11,000,000,000.00 worth of RJ's? Who knows? I am sure not proud of what has happened to our association over the last decade. We need to stop selling out our members.

There was no road show to promote flow through agreements. He visited the lounges of the Compass pilots, you know, those pilots that he represents. Those same pilots you want him to keep representing. Those same pilots that have an existing flow through.

The rest of your "thoughts" are, well, uh, disparaging at best, maliciously calculated at worst. Why? What's your agenda suggesting a secret deal with management?