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Originally Posted by FedElta
(Post 1401708)
Carl,
How much pitch-up moment is created by firewall power on the 74 ?? On the A300/310 it is considerable, and has led to fatal consequences with experienced crews. In your training were you taught to use rudder to induce the roll, if you had ineffective aileron authority ??....assuming high alpha/ low airspeed... Regards, BG Some safety studies blamed excessive use of rudder as part of the cause of American's Jamaica Bay A300 crash. Some 121 airlines had included a high angle of attack syllabus using rudder as a significant roll surface in the late 90's, and those programs went away shortly thereafter. Then there's the Fairchild B-52 crash, which shows what slow speed, excessive bank angle and an overcontrolling pilot can do: B-52 Crash at Fairchild Air Force Base - YouTube |
Originally Posted by slowplay
(Post 1401714)
It's significant on many transport aircraft. DAL had an L1011 saved by a guy using thrust to control pitch when the left elevator jammed full up (Jack MacMahan). They were able to successfully land in LAX. UAL 232 used differential power to help with control.
Some safety studies blamed excessive use of rudder as part of the cause of American's Jamaica Bay A300 crash. Some 121 airlines had included a high angle of attack syllabus using rudder as a significant roll surface in the late 90's, and those programs went away shortly thereafter. Then there's the Fairchild B-52 crash, which shows what slow speed, excessive bank angle and an overcontrolling pilot can do: B-52 Crash at Fairchild Air Force Base - YouTube I was an A300 LCA when American lost the A300 in Jamaica Bay. Rudder input did not go away completely as a result of that accident. Rather, it was relegated to a hail-mary status in a high alpha/ low speed event where pitch authority could not get the nose down, and aileron/spoiler input was insufficient to roll the aircraft.....rudder was carefully applied to get the nose below the horizon.....and no rudder reversal input.........is that your recollection ?? Regards, BG |
Originally Posted by iceman49
(Post 1401674)
Carl, what altitude did you start from?
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1401671)
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure. There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have. Something to think about. Carl Had a buddy take off from the Ukraine in a C-5 with a huge satellite dish that was weighed and labeled incorrectly. When they called rotate he kept pulling and pulling and nothing happened until finally the nose lifts off with about 1000 ft remaining. Scared the poo out of them. |
Originally Posted by FedElta
(Post 1401708)
Carl,
How much pitch-up moment is created by firewall power on the 74 ?? On the A300/310 it is considerable, and has led to fatal consequences with experienced crews.
Originally Posted by FedElta
(Post 1401708)
In your training were you taught to use rudder to induce the roll, if you had ineffective aileron authority ??....assuming high alpha/ low airspeed...
Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1401671)
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure. There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have. Something to think about. Carl |
Originally Posted by N9373M
(Post 1401540)
Why would the Navy have MRAPs? Just curious.
The Navy has a lot of stuff that the general public does not normally associate with Naval Operations. The short answer is mostly Amphibious Operations, in which an Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG) Or Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) or whatever they are being called these days, deploys with a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU). The war-fighting purpose of Amphibious Operations is to land Marines on a defended, coast although undefended is preferred :D. As such they need to prepared to be self sufficient and that is why the Navy has Construction Battalions (CBs) with bulldozers, Beach Dets, Engineers etc. Lately the Amphibs have been operating a lot of Humanitarian Assistance and Diaster Relief (HADR) missions - earthquakes, tsunamis, Wednesday in Haiti, etc. Amphibs with their Marines are always in high demand. If you think the Navy is cool - consider the Navy Reserve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNgC9BJ56XM Scoop - A proud member of the Navy Reserve - Even if we are only the Nations 17th line of defense- Take that League Of Women Voters! :D |
Originally Posted by cni187
(Post 1401778)
Guess the 747 can't open the back door and jettison the cargo huh? C-5 had a procedure to open the back door and send the cargo flying on its own.
Sorry...I was just saving Buzz from having to say this. Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1401786)
Well since the C-5 rarely gets off the ground, the cargo won't have far to fall using that procedure. :D
Sorry...I was just saving Buzz from having to say this. Carl |
cni187,
Just guessing from my 4,500 hours in the C-5, 12,000 hours of waiting to fly BTW, that opening the aft door complex was not an option, if faced with whatever happened to the B747 crew. GF C-5 Competition: the pilots complete a flight plan, engineers do a pre-flight, loads have a bake-off and maintenance does a jack job in record time. |
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