Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
07-07-2013, 03:28 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Following a deal like we signed last year, you always have the charlatans come crawling out from under their rocks proclaiming "Vote for me, I will give you everything you want." They have no plan, they have no work ethic, they only know how to craft a simple seductive message that all your dreams will be fulfilled if you simply follow their siren song.
I know you're not liking the answer alfa because they'll be no more all you can eat dinners with open bars. And your chances of a $35,000 oil painting of you are vanishing right before your eyes. I know it's painful, but change is in the wind.
Carl
07-07-2013, 03:28 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Clamp has already correctly opined on this. USAPA never planned on being a union IMO. They only planned on doing away with the Nicolau award. Nothing else. But it's so amazing that you're down to making ALPA look good by comparing them to a non-union like USAPA. Has it really gotten that bad alfa?
Anxiously awaiting the "ALPA treatment" for saying how much I love USAPA.
Carl
Anxiously awaiting the "ALPA treatment" for saying how much I love USAPA.
Carl
07-07-2013, 03:49 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: A350
Posts: 629
Time out on the "Oh so fascinating ALPA vs DPA debate"... did you see the synopsis of the Asiana CVR? Slow, throttles at idle, and multiple calls for power.
07-07-2013, 03:59 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Urban chicken rancher.
Posts: 6,070
Originally Posted by CheapTrick
Time out on the "Oh so fascinating ALPA vs DPA debate"... did you see the synopsis of the Asiana CVR? Slow, throttles at idle, and multiple calls for power.
07-07-2013, 04:10 PM
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Deleted....
Last edited by Carl Spackler; 07-07-2013 at 04:50 PM.
07-07-2013, 04:14 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Sure it was a harsh assessment, but it needs to be harsh. The APA conducted a clown show for 6+ years and only changed when their contract was rejected, they were hours away from a federal injunction that could have bankrupted the union, and their bankruptcy claim was flying out the window for good. How much closer to disaster did they have to come to change their path?
US Airways and USAPA have conducted their clown show for 7+ years now and their only hope of redemption is latching on to the APA that in turn latched onto the Delta/United contracts. They have failed in every objective they set and they have not delivered a penny of benefits to their pilots.
Following a deal like we signed last year, you always have the charlatans come crawling out from under their rocks proclaiming "Vote for me, I will give you everything you want." They have no plan, they have no work ethic, they only know how to craft a simple seductive message that all your dreams will be fulfilled if you simply follow their siren song.
The DPA lawyer is a master at this type of propaganda and deception. He ruined the mechanics union at Northwest and got kicked out of there. He led the Flight Attendants union at Northwest to near ruin and got kicked out of there. He led the US Airways pilots on a wild goose chase and took $10 million from them and finally got kicked out of there. Compare his list of former clients to current clients and you will see a guy that has basically been fired from just about every labor job he had. He got rich and they just got poorer and poorer. Now he has found a new set of chumps in the DPA that believe his crap because they want to believe his crap. Who wouldn't want to hear that all your troubles will simply disappear with a simple fix? That's is why you see all those ads for miracle diet pills on TV. Some people don't want to work out more and eat less, they would rather just take a pill and have their troubles disappear.
So if I make a harsh assessment then it's because my time in this profession has a limited life span. The time that should have been the heart of my career was spent in the bankruptcy era. Poor me. But rather than feel sorry for myself I actually tried to work to help pull the pilots out of this pit and back closer to where we need to be. Unlike the Carl's of this world who lack the courage to actually take real responsibility for anything I had to deliver the hard message that there are no easy solutions there is only work and work and more work and that improvements are cumulative and not immediate. That got us 50+% above bankruptcy rates within years of exiting.
So yes I make a harsh assessment. If I have to suffer through the APA/USAPA clown show for years and years I will sacrifice hundreds of thousands of dollars that I will never recover. So will thousands of other Delta pilots. If I want to take that seductive easy message and kick it in the teeth it's only because I have seen the serial failures and urge people to resist the siren song and continue to follow the path that has led to success.
You say I am on a high horse and I say prove my assessment wrong. Show me how the APA/USAPA clown show is leading the industry out the bankruptcy era and I will agree with you and change my stance. So far I have seen nothing but BS and bluster from the DPA crowd and their charlatan lawyer. Their ideas need to be countered. I really don't feel like sitting around for the next 6 to 8 years watching my dues money pay for the DPA lawyers boat while I wallow in the muck. That is their record and it should be exposed for what it is. Hucksterism.
US Airways and USAPA have conducted their clown show for 7+ years now and their only hope of redemption is latching on to the APA that in turn latched onto the Delta/United contracts. They have failed in every objective they set and they have not delivered a penny of benefits to their pilots.
Following a deal like we signed last year, you always have the charlatans come crawling out from under their rocks proclaiming "Vote for me, I will give you everything you want." They have no plan, they have no work ethic, they only know how to craft a simple seductive message that all your dreams will be fulfilled if you simply follow their siren song.
The DPA lawyer is a master at this type of propaganda and deception. He ruined the mechanics union at Northwest and got kicked out of there. He led the Flight Attendants union at Northwest to near ruin and got kicked out of there. He led the US Airways pilots on a wild goose chase and took $10 million from them and finally got kicked out of there. Compare his list of former clients to current clients and you will see a guy that has basically been fired from just about every labor job he had. He got rich and they just got poorer and poorer. Now he has found a new set of chumps in the DPA that believe his crap because they want to believe his crap. Who wouldn't want to hear that all your troubles will simply disappear with a simple fix? That's is why you see all those ads for miracle diet pills on TV. Some people don't want to work out more and eat less, they would rather just take a pill and have their troubles disappear.
So if I make a harsh assessment then it's because my time in this profession has a limited life span. The time that should have been the heart of my career was spent in the bankruptcy era. Poor me. But rather than feel sorry for myself I actually tried to work to help pull the pilots out of this pit and back closer to where we need to be. Unlike the Carl's of this world who lack the courage to actually take real responsibility for anything I had to deliver the hard message that there are no easy solutions there is only work and work and more work and that improvements are cumulative and not immediate. That got us 50+% above bankruptcy rates within years of exiting.
So yes I make a harsh assessment. If I have to suffer through the APA/USAPA clown show for years and years I will sacrifice hundreds of thousands of dollars that I will never recover. So will thousands of other Delta pilots. If I want to take that seductive easy message and kick it in the teeth it's only because I have seen the serial failures and urge people to resist the siren song and continue to follow the path that has led to success.
You say I am on a high horse and I say prove my assessment wrong. Show me how the APA/USAPA clown show is leading the industry out the bankruptcy era and I will agree with you and change my stance. So far I have seen nothing but BS and bluster from the DPA crowd and their charlatan lawyer. Their ideas need to be countered. I really don't feel like sitting around for the next 6 to 8 years watching my dues money pay for the DPA lawyers boat while I wallow in the muck. That is their record and it should be exposed for what it is. Hucksterism.
07-07-2013, 04:19 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by buzzpat
And stick shaker.
Carl
07-07-2013, 04:27 PM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
.....It really becomes impossible to gauge any performance when you write everything off as "it would happen anyway", when in fact you don't know if any of it would have happened. This is a cop out and a poor excuse for analysis. "Oh yeah, we would have gotten that anyway." Okay, then you have set the rules where you can win any argument because we are now operating in your fantasy world that can never be questioned because it exists only in your own mind. Look back at all the other pilot groups and let me know how often they "got that on their own anyway". In fact they didn't get jack until we set the entire industry on it's ear last year.
Doesn't your argument have a flip side? Just like my daughters can't prove I wouldn't have gotten them clothes, or food, or taken them to school, when I said they had to get their act together (or else), I can't prove that management was going to offer the early retirement program, buy the 717's, and get rid of the RJ's. (I'll leave out the 14 hour limit on short call argument, because I don't think you are the one who claims that to be a contract improvement.)
But, my daughters have past performance as evidence to support their beliefs. They know that I have bought them clothes and food and taken them to school for their entire lives, no matter what they did.
Like them, I have evidence, too:
1.) Early Retirement Program:
The Company has offered an early retirement program before. Without being asked, they did it on their own. I've heard arguments that it is beneficial to them to smooth the retirements out over time instead of having everyone retire at once. Their communications to us often indicate that this is something they worry about.
Also, they offered an early retirement program to the majority of the other employee groups the previous year, while we curiously were missing amongst the participants.
2.) Acquisition of Boeing 717's:
The company has ordered airplanes without pilots agreeing to a contract before. In fact, I can't recall a single aircraft order that was contingent on pilots signing an agreement. Even if there has been such a case, I would venture to say that the vast majority of aircraft purchases occur without such an agreement. Normally, if an airline needs airplanes, they order them. That's what they do. Just like when parents needs to feed and clothe their kids and take them to school so as to properly raise them.
3.) Retirement of the 50 Seat RJ's:
You, and others, are going to have to correct me if I'm wrong on this one. Wasn't the company retiring 50 seater's before our agreement? Even if I'm mistaken, there have been many people on this board, and others who have shown how they weren't economical. From talking to them, I know passengers hate them to the point where they book their trips to avoid them.
So, to me, it's isn't such a stretch that the company would have been looking to retire them regardless of whether or not we had an agreement. If it's broke, unreliable, and/or the customers hate the product, it's time to get rid of it. That's simple business sense and our management team has proven themselves to be great businessmen.
So, there it is. Past performance and business sense is what leads me to believe that the company would have offered the early retirement program, bought the 717's, and found a way to retire the 50 seater's.
Do you have any evidence that leads you to believe that they wouldn't have done these things without us signing a contract?
No jabs or cheap shots intended. Since you seem to have inside information, and since you seem to be willing to talk, I sincerely just want to know what the thinking was behind accepting these items as negotiated items for the our pilot group.
Thanks in advance.
New K
07-07-2013, 04:32 PM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Sure it was a harsh assessment, but it needs to be harsh. The APA conducted a clown show for 6+ years and only changed when their contract was rejected, they were hours away from a federal injunction that could have bankrupted the union, and their bankruptcy claim was flying out the window for good. How much closer to disaster did they have to come to change their path?
US Airways and USAPA have conducted their clown show for 7+ years now and their only hope of redemption is latching on to the APA that in turn latched onto the Delta/United contracts. They have failed in every objective they set and they have not delivered a penny of benefits to their pilots.
Following a deal like we signed last year, you always have the charlatans come crawling out from under their rocks proclaiming "Vote for me, I will give you everything you want." They have no plan, they have no work ethic, they only know how to craft a simple seductive message that all your dreams will be fulfilled if you simply follow their siren song.
The DPA lawyer is a master at this type of propaganda and deception. He ruined the mechanics union at Northwest and got kicked out of there. He led the Flight Attendants union at Northwest to near ruin and got kicked out of there. He led the US Airways pilots on a wild goose chase and took $10 million from them and finally got kicked out of there. Compare his list of former clients to current clients and you will see a guy that has basically been fired from just about every labor job he had. He got rich and they just got poorer and poorer. Now he has found a new set of chumps in the DPA that believe his crap because they want to believe his crap. Who wouldn't want to hear that all your troubles will simply disappear with a simple fix? That's is why you see all those ads for miracle diet pills on TV. Some people don't want to work out more and eat less, they would rather just take a pill and have their troubles disappear.
So if I make a harsh assessment then it's because my time in this profession has a limited life span. The time that should have been the heart of my career was spent in the bankruptcy era. Poor me. But rather than feel sorry for myself I actually tried to work to help pull the pilots out of this pit and back closer to where we need to be. Unlike the Carl's of this world who lack the courage to actually take real responsibility for anything I had to deliver the hard message that there are no easy solutions there is only work and work and more work and that improvements are cumulative and not immediate. That got us 50+% above bankruptcy rates within years of exiting.
So yes I make a harsh assessment. If I have to suffer through the APA/USAPA clown show for years and years I will sacrifice hundreds of thousands of dollars that I will never recover. So will thousands of other Delta pilots. If I want to take that seductive easy message and kick it in the teeth it's only because I have seen the serial failures and urge people to resist the siren song and continue to follow the path that has led to success.
You say I am on a high horse and I say prove my assessment wrong. Show me how the APA/USAPA clown show is leading the industry out the bankruptcy era and I will agree with you and change my stance. So far I have seen nothing but BS and bluster from the DPA crowd and their charlatan lawyer. Their ideas need to be countered. I really don't feel like sitting around for the next 6 to 8 years watching my dues money pay for the DPA lawyers boat while I wallow in the muck. That is their record and it should be exposed for what it is. Hucksterism.
US Airways and USAPA have conducted their clown show for 7+ years now and their only hope of redemption is latching on to the APA that in turn latched onto the Delta/United contracts. They have failed in every objective they set and they have not delivered a penny of benefits to their pilots.
Following a deal like we signed last year, you always have the charlatans come crawling out from under their rocks proclaiming "Vote for me, I will give you everything you want." They have no plan, they have no work ethic, they only know how to craft a simple seductive message that all your dreams will be fulfilled if you simply follow their siren song.
The DPA lawyer is a master at this type of propaganda and deception. He ruined the mechanics union at Northwest and got kicked out of there. He led the Flight Attendants union at Northwest to near ruin and got kicked out of there. He led the US Airways pilots on a wild goose chase and took $10 million from them and finally got kicked out of there. Compare his list of former clients to current clients and you will see a guy that has basically been fired from just about every labor job he had. He got rich and they just got poorer and poorer. Now he has found a new set of chumps in the DPA that believe his crap because they want to believe his crap. Who wouldn't want to hear that all your troubles will simply disappear with a simple fix? That's is why you see all those ads for miracle diet pills on TV. Some people don't want to work out more and eat less, they would rather just take a pill and have their troubles disappear.
So if I make a harsh assessment then it's because my time in this profession has a limited life span. The time that should have been the heart of my career was spent in the bankruptcy era. Poor me. But rather than feel sorry for myself I actually tried to work to help pull the pilots out of this pit and back closer to where we need to be. Unlike the Carl's of this world who lack the courage to actually take real responsibility for anything I had to deliver the hard message that there are no easy solutions there is only work and work and more work and that improvements are cumulative and not immediate. That got us 50+% above bankruptcy rates within years of exiting.
So yes I make a harsh assessment. If I have to suffer through the APA/USAPA clown show for years and years I will sacrifice hundreds of thousands of dollars that I will never recover. So will thousands of other Delta pilots. If I want to take that seductive easy message and kick it in the teeth it's only because I have seen the serial failures and urge people to resist the siren song and continue to follow the path that has led to success.
You say I am on a high horse and I say prove my assessment wrong. Show me how the APA/USAPA clown show is leading the industry out the bankruptcy era and I will agree with you and change my stance. So far I have seen nothing but BS and bluster from the DPA crowd and their charlatan lawyer. Their ideas need to be countered. I really don't feel like sitting around for the next 6 to 8 years watching my dues money pay for the DPA lawyers boat while I wallow in the muck. That is their record and it should be exposed for what it is. Hucksterism.
07-07-2013, 04:34 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by newKnow
Do you have any evidence that leads you to believe that they wouldn't have done these things without us signing a contract?
Thanks in advance.
New K
Thanks in advance.
New K
- Increased pay
- Better RJ scope - (production balance in our favor)
- JV protections (which look to have had significant strategic importance as we deal with the Virgin deal and Japan issues)
- came up to industry standard on reserve ....
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