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Originally Posted by JoeMerchant
(Post 671576)
Yeah a B scale like ACL65 posted above....Tell me how much of the Delta domestic flying would then fall into this "new B scale"? How long will it take a Delta newhire to get to $100/hr. under this new "B scale"?
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 671592)
ACL, you hinting at a flow through is coming for ASA?
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 671594)
My personal thought here......
A flow scares me on the surface. A few things need to be in place besides just a flow. What a flow does is resets DCI costs and once again lowers the costs of these airlines. Why? Well you get rid of the dead wood. That once again MAY promote outsourcing. That is my fear. What needs to be in place to have a flow work is this. We need in the PWA, a MOU or LOA that the company will transfer assets to mainline as these DCI contracts come due. What that means is we work towards the recapture. As the pilots flow the airplanes flow. This is a way a flow may actually have benefits for Delta Pilots. A flow in its simplest form will just reduce cost at DCI. The pilots of those jets keep their jobs and whatever negotiated benefits, as the flying is transferred back. That works. As stated the double edge portion of that sword is that all of a sudden it behooves the company to throw more flying on the DCI side of the operation if the second part of the equation is not there. Slow, I am not saying that the MEC does not have the best intrests of the rank and file in mind. My bone of contention is that our direction is not being communicated. There are some real benefits to the rumors I am hearing, but there needs to be a lot to it. Inclusive scope protects us as pilots. I think we can agree with that. We have it on the JV with AF et al. We can also make it happen for our bottom end too. There needs to be a DCI, but as they say you can have too much of a "good" thing. I personally feel that we are way past that. As for the "B: scale comment Joe, most of that is moot if we do it this way. DING DING DING DING! WE HAVE A WINNER!:D |
Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 671668)
Understood, but how does the Delta/SkyWest deal protect ASA pilots?
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Originally Posted by dragon
(Post 671737)
Bevo Burgers for all my friends! Go OU!
Mark your calendars 10-17-09 for those burgers. BTW OU SUCKS!! :D |
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
(Post 671755)
Except you don't own Delta Air Lines, or the airplane you fly either. "Minor" detail.
To make your example realistic, it would be as if you rented the house then paid someone to mow the lawn. Because that's what you're really doing. Some of the egos over there are unbelievable! You guys own nothing, and have no control. You are EMPLOYED by either Delta Air Lines or Northwest Airlines, both WHOLLY OWNED SUBSIDIARIES of DAL, Inc. Stop kidding yourselves that you have any control over anything. You too are at the mercy of the bean counters. the same bean counters who are giving away "your" flying. Granted, right now those clauses are too loose and have some big holes in them, but that was through our own undoing, not anything you or any other contract carrier influenced. At the end of the day, Delta pilots will have a say. What that price will be and whether or not we will pay is a whole separate debate. The fact that we have the ability to decide, though, gives us a whole lot more control than you have, which is virtually none. In other words, we can change the status quo, you can't. All you can hope for is that we don't. So when I say "my" flying, it is a whole lot more "mine" than it is "yours." If you don't believe that, than you're the one kidding yourself. |
Originally Posted by upndsky
(Post 671778)
Regardless of whether I "own" or "rent" the house, I still have a say over who gets to mow the lawn, just as we Delta pilots have some say over who gets to fly what through our scope clauses. This is where you don't get it.
Originally Posted by upndsky
(Post 671778)
Granted, right now those clauses are too loose and have some big holes in them, but that was through our own undoing, not anything you or any other contract carrier influenced.
Originally Posted by upndsky
(Post 671778)
At the end of the day, Delta pilots will have a say. What that price will be and whether or not we will pay is a whole separate debate.
Originally Posted by upndsky
(Post 671778)
The fact that we have the ability to decide, though, gives us a whole lot more control than you have, which is virtually none. In other words, we can change the status quo, you can't. All you can hope for is that we don't.
So when I say "my" flying, it is a whole lot more "mine" than it is "yours." If you don't believe that, than you're the one kidding yourself. Time for a reality check. "Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash". |
It might be easier in this discussion if we start from a base of what we agree on. I would submit that these are points that maybe we can agree on, correct me if I am wrong:
1. Delta pilots have a contractual right to control all flying done under the DL code. Whether we "own" it or not is just semantics. We negotiated for that right so we can exercise that right. 2. The current whipsaw with 485,000 different DCI carriers is not serving Delta well and is not serving the pilots well, at any carrier. The DCI pilots are being thrown around like pawns as management teams try to undercut each other. This whipsaw has negative implications for pilots at mainline too. For Delta, this race to the bottom is not providing the service that a top tier airline should deliver. 3. Each pilot at each carrier makes decisions that are right for his circumstances in life. What is right for Pilot A is not right for Pilot B and so on. It makes little sense arguing which career decisions each other should make because you are all different people. 4. Merging carriers is a management function. Labor does not merge corporate entities. Labor merges seniority lists AFTER management decides on a corporate transaction. Trying to merge a seniority list without a corporate merger is pointless. If you can accept some or all of those assertions, then perhaps you can decide on a course of action from there. My plan is: 1. Decide on a seniority integration process for as many DCI carriers that want to participate. This will make it easier to sell the remaining steps to management. If management is going to be convinced to move along this path, they won't deal with a US Air/America West style food fight over seniority. 2. Work with management to standardize the work rules, PBS, pay, etc. for all DCI carriers. 3. Work with management to merge participating DCI carriers into one entity with flow up flow down. 4. Finally merge the DCI entity into mainline It took a long time to get into this mess and it will take a long time to get out. Some of the current DCI carriers will be dropped or out of business by the time this is done. We should strive to make sure that pilots always go along with planes in any transaction. We should also strive to make sure that pilots that are happy with their current situation have some type of fence protection for their current jobs for at least some period of time. Don't know if this is possible or even practical, but I think we all will be better off under one company and one contract. |
Originally Posted by flycrj200
(Post 671630)
Numbers do not lie. I do not want to post the numbers on a public forum since Delta does not publish Comair numbers separately. If Comair is lossing so much money for Delta, just shut it down and take your losses now.
If losing money was the criteria for shutting down who wouldn't be shut down? Scoop |
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
(Post 671792)
If you think so. History proves you're wrong, or we wouldn't even be having this discussion would we? 76 seat Jets at DCI? How'd that happen?
Originally Posted by John Pennekamp
(Post 671792)
I knew the threat was coming. And real mature with the "ha, ha, it's not mine, but it's not yours either" :rolleyes: Time for a reality check. "Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash". Second, what ha ha ha? As a Delta employee, not a contractor, I believe I have an entitlement to all that flying Delta does and I am sure most will agree. So in that sense, yes, the flying is "mine," not "yours." If you want to question my maturity, I'd suggest you first look in the mirror. The quote at the end of that message can go both ways, "son." |
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 671813)
It might be easier in this discussion if we start from a base of what we agree on. I would submit that these are points that maybe we can agree on, correct me if I am wrong:
1. Delta pilots have a contractual right to control all flying done under the DL code. Whether we "own" it or not is just semantics. We negotiated for that right so we can exercise that right. DALPA cannot force a Delta pilot onto a DCI ALPA list without the consent of that DCI ALPA pilot group. In other words, it's not an "absolute" right within ALPA. If the two groups aren't in the same union, then this doesn't apply.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
2. The current whipsaw with 485,000 different DCI carriers is not serving Delta well and is not serving the pilots well, at any carrier. The DCI pilots are being thrown around like pawns as management teams try to undercut each other. This whipsaw has negative implications for pilots at mainline too. For Delta, this race to the bottom is not providing the service that a top tier airline should deliver.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
3. Each pilot at each carrier makes decisions that are right for his circumstances in life. What is right for Pilot A is not right for Pilot B and so on. It makes little sense arguing which career decisions each other should make because you are all different people.
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
4. Merging carriers is a management function. Labor does not merge corporate entities. Labor merges seniority lists AFTER management decides on a corporate transaction. Trying to merge a seniority list without a corporate merger is pointless.
1. Mesa/Freedom 2. Shuttle/Chautaqua/Republic 3. Eagle/Executive It can be done IF there is a will and IF you are willing to pay the price to accomplish it. The price goes up the longer it is put off. |
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