Opinion/rant to follow:

What really bothers me the most about all this is that even if everything we were told was true, about the company possibly having "over extended" themselves with 500+ 50 seat RJs, more outsourced 90 seat jets configured with 76 seats as the financial Rosetta stone to the companies problem, etc...

These are all issues for the corporate officers, Board of Directors and the Shareholders. Yes, their not so good decisions will certainly adversely affect the units of labor, but nowhere in any corporate structure that I'm aware of does a unit of labor stand on equal footing in capital expenditure decisions/mistakes as the Corporation's officers, directors and shareholders.

The fact that we, as labor, had to self finance to a certain extent our "participation" by conceding in parts of our contract with management is adding insult to injury.

My hope for the future is that we don't engage in further scope "adjustments" as part of the companies capital expenditure program.

So how does this make me wrong? Are you denying that the Status-quo regarding greesn-slips changed? We now had had no "status quo." Status-quo is what shut down the no Green-slip campaign earlier. DALPA had another chance and choose not to pursue it. Maybe the reason was to avoid a double furlough as you say above but I doubt they would have been able to furlough without guys flying green-slips.

I was furloughed, then recalled and hundreds were still furloughed. I remember tons of Greesn-slips going out this time and DALPA was OK with it.

Any other furloughed guys remember Green-slips going out at this time?

Its really not worth arguing at this point. Most realize that DALPA will never, ever admit that it could have actually done something just a little bit better .............ever.

It must be nice to be perfect.

Scoop

Remember it very well. Also remember the excuses. "Well, I'm sorry, but with these pay-cuts I need to make up the difference so I can keep all the stuff I immediately went out and bought after C2001."

The green slips in Orlando were flowing heavy.

I also remember what no-furlough language we had at the time being erased out of the contract with thousands on the street.

If market cap is an important metric to you, Delta is at approximately $17 billion. In 1998 Delta's peak market cap was about $28 billion. So Delta is 61% of the way back...

You quoted a guy on my ignore list talking about "cola pay raises". Contract 2012 puts his super premium pay rate at $270.25 plus 15% DC on 1/1/15. The highest pay rate he ever had prior to the merger was $264.96 plus 3% MPPP. BTW, it's still not enough.

You quoted those pay raises were "fully funded by productivity concessions and profit sharing reductions". The net productivity increase was about 125 jobs across a 10,500 pilot system. The profit sharing transition to pay ranged from $0 at no profit to $42 million at $2.5 billion in profit. The C2012 pay rate/DC increases were over 20% and worth $400 million annually in 2015. Not "fully funded", "cost neutral" or "offset" by a long shot.

So the cards are on the table. You didn't read the hands right.

I don't see anything in your spin cycle about the 300+ early-outs ALPA promised but didn't materialize.

And it's impossible to put a number on the QOL loss suffered from ALV+15, 7 short calls, sick leave harassment, I could go on.

Logic fail. You call for a vote when you have the numbers. It's just a math issue.

Nobody is saying ALPA is "failing to do its job". Many of us are just saying the job they are doing is allowing too many of our jobs to be outsourced. That's how over 5,000 pilots fill out cards for a independent union. Calling for a vote is not something you do without great care because if your vote fails (even by one vote) you can do nothing again for two years.

See above

Again, not a single Delta pilot is signing on to an independent union to help avenge a vendetta from Tim. Don't you see how you sound when you/DALPA talk this way?

I understand the talking points of equating us to USAPA, saying its all about undoing our seniority list, vengeance for Tim, etc. You're stating those talking points with great loyalty and emotion. But there's not a shred of evidence to back that up. You have a right to your opinion, but that's all it is johnso.

Carl

I find it very interesting that in the months of Jul & Aug AMR
took delivery of 8 new aircraft while still in chapter 11 bankruptcy and Delta had no new deliveries.

My recollection around the time I was called back is that guys were complaining GS would dry up because of recalls. I'm not 100% sure anymore as to which LOA enabled it, but I seem to remember the summer of my return is when I got my thunder rolling. Now, setting aside the question of whether it's more OK for a returning guy to GS in these circumstances (it probably isn't), the climate I recall was all about the GS.

In the future, the form if furlough mitigation we need is actually to prevent GS AND WS flying above some threshold (ALV or your line award). Would protect us from the company and ourselves.

How does this fit into current events, anyway? What we did then was disgusting, but it wasn't done against the will of the group. We all know it's wrong to have ANY extra flying during furloughs, but we never ask for it to be negotiated into a contract. I would bet the % of pilots that ask for meaningful furlough protections in their top priorities is probably less than 15%.

I think Alfa is incorrect in downplaying GS availability during that time (but I'm going by personal experience, and maybe he has better data). I think the true story is probably more about ALPA faithfully representing the will of the pilot group. Which reveals the ugly side of the group, not the union.

Scoop and Jay5150,

First of all I'm sorry you guys ended up getting furloughed, it sucked.

Here is how I remember it. Yes guys were flying green slips while you were out on furlough. I don't think they should have been doing it. Unfortunately there is that pesky "status quo" thingy with the NMB and we had the 49ers to prove that Delta would come after the Union and individuals in court to enforce this. I think there is at least one of them that frequents this forum. He could tell you more.

That being said, I pretty sure the price of a green slip from 2X to 1.5X and the "Furlough Protection Letter" were a result of the side letter of agreement (46 I think) that took effect in Nov. 2004 to try to avoid bankruptcy. At the time I thought it was essentially a new contract. The "Furlough Protection Letter" was a casualty of the Bankruptcy process. One thing I would like to know, if we have/had such great lawyers, why didn't they know the "Furlough Protection Letter" wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

The following is not aimed at you guys, it's just my feelings. This is all behind us and I choose to look forward rather than dwell in the past. I know that "those who don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it." I'm all for trying to correct the inequities of the contract and hopefully we will. I am very optimistic about the future of our Company and what we should be able to negotiate in our next contract.

And like someone else said, I'm very thankful that, after 25 years, I STILL ENJOY GOING TO WORK! (Granted, we would all like to be independently wealthy and not have to work!) I know most all, if not all, of you out there in APC Land can say the same thing. That's a testament to this pilot group. Truthfully, how many people in other industries can honestly say that they enjoy going to work?

I'll get off the soapbox now. Move along, nothing to see here.....:)

Denny

I don't think our MEC admin got played at all Columbia. They were all smart guys. Our guys agreed to this because they truly believe in doing what's best for the company and it will eventually trickle down to employees. This is why the Wall Street Journal describes our union president as a "new style" union leader and a "breath of fresh air."

That line of reasoning was for the members benefit only. DALPA didn't fall for a bluff because they were partners in the excuse making. I said early on in that process that the items in our early negotiations had already been agreed to before those negotiations began. The ensuing months were all about devising the correct series of sales pressure and talking points to obtain 50% plus.

I believe the exact same thing is happening again regarding the NRT slots and JV. DALPA has already provided relief as requested by management. Our MEC is now simply taking care to produce the properly worded documents to show why they did what they've already done.

Carl