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-   -   Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

GunshipGuy 06-23-2013 09:34 PM


Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1433513)

A demonstration of raw data flying within tolerances for visual approaches on the A320 is required to pass training.

Same for the 88 (in the sim on a visual).

Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.

GunshipGuy 06-23-2013 09:37 PM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1433512)
Question for you, on the checklist what do you say on landing at SPOILERS... ARM? Do you say ARM or Armed?

Saying Armed will get you a debrief for not saying what's on the checklist. The checklist clearly says ARM. Not armed. Got it?

That's why I now say RET & DISARMED. Not retracted and disarmed. RET as in rhymes with BET.

Feel free to use it. :D

I'm an "armed" guy, but I did consider saying "ENG IGN" during my recent requirement to recite memory items.

forgot to bid 06-23-2013 09:39 PM


Originally Posted by GunshipGuy (Post 1433523)
I'm an "armed" guy, but I did consider saying "ENG INIT" during my recent requirement to recite memory items.

I'm debating whether to ask on the walk around slides "now, those compartment louvers I just must identify correctly on the back the tail, how do I operate them? What button or switch do I use to open and close them?" :D

forgot to bid 06-23-2013 09:42 PM


Originally Posted by Jack Bauer (Post 1433370)
Could this new hand flying "practice" in the sim be a result of Air France Flight 447?

"In the agency's final report, which was released today, investigators determined that a combination of technical failures and mistakes made by inadequately trained pilots was responsible for the crash. They recommended that pilots be better trained to manually fly commercial aircraft at high altitudes..."

It seems the First Officer had become so reliant on automation (and was probably trained in one of those european ab initio training cram jobs) he could not recognize what was happening when the airplane entered a stall...calling for the Captain to come help (the Captain was temporarily out of the cockpit). Watch the video with cvr text below and the video that follows.

Air France Flight 447 Crash 'Didn't Have to Happen,' Expert Says - ABC News

Pull quotes:
But the report went on to say that there were at least 12 other instances where pilots encountered this issue and the flights continued normally without problems. Voss said the Air France pilots didn't seem prepared for the situation they found themselves in the night of the crash.

"[The pilots] seemed to have trouble looking past the automation they were accustomed to and not really able to continue with the old raw information that pilots used to depend on," he said. "Clearly the report shows that there was a lot of difficult communication on the flight deck, a lot of incomplete thoughts, a lot of confusion."

and

But in modern aviation, large commercial jets almost fly themselves. Voss said that on any given flight, pilots are manually flying the plane for only three minutes -- one minute and 30 seconds each for take-off and landing.

"The fact is there aren't many opportunities for a pilot to hand fly the aircraft anymore," he said. "The truth is it's only a few minutes during each flight, maybe until they climb up to altitude. Many airplanes don't even allow the hand flying for that long."

At the heart of the heated debate over so-called "automation addiction," which is when pilots are overly dependent on computers to fly their planes, is the question of whether pilots are actually learning how to properly fly large commercial aircraft.

"Because of this sophistication and the ability of airplane to fly themselves, they don't have as many people to actually fly the airplane, to actually exercise their stick and rudder capabilities," Bill Bozin, the vice president of safety and technical affairs at Airbus, told "Nightline" in June.

In the wake of the Air France crash, Voss said "many airlines" were retraining their pilots on flying manually, but that much more needs to be done to overhaul pilot training programs around the world.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...d/temp2-53.png

ShyGuy 06-23-2013 10:41 PM

In the Airbus you're commanding load factor and roll rate. In that sense it's a different and unique airplane. But that AF447 crash had a bunch of factors: Fatigue/lack of appropriate sleep, late night flying, storms, turbulence, and unreliable speeds. However, one thing I don't understand is full deflection and holding it. If you're low to the ground, windshear, terrain, go ahead and command alpha max. But if you are high enough, and especially when you don't know what's really going on, the last thing you want to do is command full deflection in any surface, any direction. Not doing anything would have been a far better action. Same with AA587. No matter what the situation or training, full deflection opposing commands on any surface won't do you good. By the time the plane reacts one way, you're already headed the other on the control.

80ktsClamp 06-23-2013 10:43 PM


Originally Posted by GunshipGuy (Post 1433522)
Same for the 88 (in the sim on a visual).

Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.

Yep? Why not? Done it with the CLCP in the jumpseat on the 767 (now years ago) while we're at it. I've gotten and have seen numerous compliments given over the years for good management of the aircraft in all regimes of automation.

Normal arcing base turn to smoothly join final on path and on energy instead of pushing and pulling all sorts of knobs.. You know, be a pilot. The LCA has zero margin to give you anything on that. And if they do... you have significant margin to lean into them right back.

I spent a very short time on the 88, and that was a good operation then... all the fleets I've flown have promoted good command and control of the aircraft above all else. Know what it says in the books and send it right back to them if they lambast you for not doing their personal technique. Back it up with the book and you will always win... and if not, take it to the lead. If not... keep going. Rogue LCPs are what shall troll in the regional world, not the gentleman's carrier we work for.

80ktsClamp 06-23-2013 10:47 PM


Originally Posted by GunshipGuy (Post 1433523)
I'm an "armed" guy, but I did consider saying "ENG IGN" during my recent requirement to recite memory items.

Memory items are not required to be verbatim, only be able to recite the items to convey understanding of the order and execution.

FmrFreightDog 06-24-2013 02:56 AM


Originally Posted by GunshipGuy (Post 1433522)
Same for the 88 (in the sim on a visual).

Still curious--you've flown a visual (possibly backed up by the ILS) while the captain is getting a line check and had the FD off? Asking because I'm not sure if you meant with an LCA or the scenario I'm asking about. Maybe I'm alone here, but I just can't see that sitting well with a 88 LCA.

I flew a visual pattern into GSO yesterday with FDs and AP off using ARC mode yesterday with an LCA in the left seat. He had his stuff up and was working the panel to manage his FD, but my side was all raw data. He didn't say a word. I usually fly VFR patterns that way just because its easier to me than trying to work the crap out of the panel to make the airplane do it.

GunshipGuy 06-24-2013 03:04 AM


Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1433541)
Memory items are not required to be verbatim, only be able to recite the items to convey understanding of the order and execution.

Yeah, I know...just bouncing back at FTB, who I'm confident knows that as well. My last partner in the sim fully demonstrated of which you speak.

Jughead 06-24-2013 03:29 AM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1433508)
I think the mandatory "VNAV ONLY" technique is an 88 community thing.

I think you're correct.

I originally dug in my heels, because I was a IAS/VS guy. It's smooth and I don't like tossing granny out of her seat. I eventually liked Vnav on the 88, using it all the way to g/s intercept. I liked the challenge of making it smooth and precise and efficient. I never liked being told I should use it, or being critiqued for not using it.

On newer types of the MD series, which should be arriving within the next several months, you'll find this "requirement" no more - once inside of the terminal area, lose the Vnav (PROF) and use v/s or IAS (Level Change).

This short film clip demonstrates selecting V/S or IAS, and that Vnav is relinquishing control of the airplane (courtesy McDonnell Douglas):

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-conte.../goldfrapp.gif


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