Shiznit said (((If they debate and decide the pilots would slam dunk a "Yes", why bother with the union expense (20-40k) and delayed implementation of the benefits of the agreement?)))

I guess that would be true if there weren't some "negatives" that also would be delayed by involving the pilots in ratification. If there were no gives in this deal, I might agree with you, but apparently there are CDO's and rumors of other gives.

20 to 40k is a drop in the bucket compared to the money spent on the SC, electioneers at the BOD etc. At least memrat is directly involving the line pilot in the process. That would be dues dollars well spent IMO.

I've read all the posts. What you want to do is separate "legal" from "safe." If we could do that, then I think you would be correct but that's not the reality of the situation. I don't think you can separate them, hence my answer to your question. Since CDO's were not excluded by 117, I have to conclude the panel that developed 117 evaluated CDO's and thought they would be safe enough to perform. (I'm not saying I agree with it but that's my interpretation.)

Denny

Okay, I understand now. The FAA always gets it right... and legal is always safe. So in the old FAR's, the minimum reduced layover was 8 hours and that was safe...... until it wasn't. And now, in FAR 117, they went out of their way to make 8 hours of sleep to be the standard for the amount of sleep a pilot should get before carrying passengers. But since they put some split duty language into the FAR to allow for CDO's, it's okay for THOSE pilots to have less than 8 hours of sleep (cause you and I both know pilots aren't sleeping 8 hours during the day before beginning a CDO).

Yeah, I agree with you. It's legal.

But it's not safe. Now way no how.

Maybe they had one "panel" that decided 8 hours of sleep was important and another panel that decided it wasn't? :rolleyes:

Deleted....already discussed

Nobody is saying that. These trips with a 30 hr layover and over 8 hours of flying after a 0400 wake up are not exactly safe (for me) either.

So we'll have to compromise to get an overall better product for the pilot group. Reducing those 30 hour layovers that I have no option in avoiding and adding in CDOs with restrictions and override that some will prefer while overall improving workrules (equalizing ADG and DPA is huge!) and adding pilot jobs is preferrable.

Agreed....

^^^^^^Ditto^^^^^^

Denny

I hear day 1 of long rsv is fixed among other things, but of course the devil is in the details. I hope they are realizing that "hey, we've got something!" and then 2 days of crickets is not how you handle things.

Not to cheapen those involved nor the product... but they've got throw a bone to the natives with some concrete stuff. Preferably the entire language.

I might be ok with the CDO's if they CAN'T be given to those who bid around them. Make them an option for pilots to bid. Then those that can't get there needed sleep with this type flying can bid around them. Not really fair to allow them then realize guys don't necessarily like them and they fall on the junior guys.

Justifying these things by saying "well they are equally evil to other trips we already fly" is not a good idea. We need to be cleaning out problem areas not allowing more. I mean we already have RJ's so why not just allow more right. Or take out all the condo's in the wide body fleet. I mean some of our guys don't get that option right? Lets think about this

Also no one is addressing the staffing impact. I hope we take a hard look at allowing ourselves to become more efficient for the company.

The other stuff seems to sound good. Just hoping we aren't trading anything when we should be making outright gains.

If you are senior enough to hold SDT/CDO reserve, and you live in base, you will forget you even work for the company. I did it a few years ago, flew 15 hours the whole year.